Extended RTF Editing Features... a workaround [Archive]

cnewtonne

05-18-2007, 12:55 PM

Hi all,
I spend 2 days trying to figure out how to be able to use what Kinook terms as 'extended editing features' in UR without the current hassle. I just got tired of having to 'cntrl+j' just to apply a text style or indent a line. I totally believe it is not fair on Kinook's part to suggest to their users to purchase and us MSWord to be able to perform such basic RTF operations. What is even more perplexing, is that the RTF control used does support these features, it is just that Kinook's did not build the interface to them. I have no idea why is this the case. Any how, I can not whine too much because UR remains one of my favorite apps and I do appreciate all the ingenious work behind it. It is just I expect this app to be the best always.

To work around this issue, I was able to come up with a solution that allows me to do the following right in the native text editor ...
- create and apply text syles
- indent in both directions
- insert tables
- do whatever else I like to do that I can do in MSWord.

On the downside, it will cost you some money i.e. $30 to be exact.

This solution is based on the fact that If you paste formatted text in the editor then delete it, the editor will retain the formatting. If you follow that with any typing, the new text will acquire this format. To do this, I wanted a tool that allows me to capture the format, save it, and retrieve it in an efficient way i.e. hotkeys or shortext at most. Once done, the tool needs to be a able to automate some key presses to go back and do some cleaning like backspaces and deletes and so forth.

The only automation tool I found (and I looked at 10 of them), is one called Perfect Keyboard (http://www.pitrinec.com/pkindex.htm ). Simply put, I copied all my header styles, paragraph formats, tables, ...etc. Then created macro that apply them on existing text as well as new blank lines using windows Clipboad calls. It worked flawlessly and I'm happy with it.

If you are fed up and tired of UR RTF restrictions and can not wait till Kinooks come up with a decent RFT alternative in the 21st century, try this trick. If you have questions, just reply and I will be happy to follow up.

Lastly, I would like to appeal to Kinook, please, please, please, put this feature request on top of your list. It is just to much pain to cope with the lack of it. I saw a post on this forum somewhere where you replied that you are working a enchaining RTF editing features in the next release. This post was in 2005. It is 2007 now and the 3rd generation of UR and we still have to use word to indent a line or format text styles.

Please share your thoughts.

Thank you all.

TMF

05-18-2007, 01:25 PM

Thanks for inspiration.

Did you also try Autoit http://www.autoitscript.com/autoit3/ and Macromaker http://members.ij.net/anthonymathews/MacroMaker.htm ?
Just wondering because if you did and they didn't work, that would save me time exploring them.

quant

05-18-2007, 01:41 PM

some people on this forum mentioned that they use Macro Express with UR ...

cnewtonne

05-18-2007, 01:46 PM

Only if they support RTF text via clipboard or natively. Otherwise, you're out of luck. I did not see from my quick check on the web site that they do. AutoIt, however, does support clipboard operations, but you still need to try it. Most of the ones I saw, strip the formatting when they handle the text.

cnewtonne

05-18-2007, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by quant
some people on this forum mentioned that they use Macro Express with UR ...

I have ME and I've been using it for over 2 years now. I'm a big fan of this very fine application. However, I sought their support and they did confirm to me that RTF operations are not supported. I tried myself and I could never get it to handle the formatting. It always stripped it.

quant

05-18-2007, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by cnewtonne
I have ME and I've been using it for over 2 years now. I'm a big fan of this very fine application. However, I sought their support and they did confirm to me that RTF operations are not supported. I tried myself and I could never get it to handle the formatting. It always stripped it.

I see, what about using some freeware rft editor for the cases when you need "advanced :)" editing?

kinook

05-18-2007, 02:47 PM

A few comments:

1) Some versions of the MS rich edit control (used by UR) do support some extended RTF editing features, but
a) their license precludes us from installing it with UR. We can copy a newer version if found on the system during installation, but the fact that we can't guarantee that the extended functionality will work properly for all users is less than ideal.
b) Different versions of the control have different bugs, requiring some users to not user certain versions of the control (a support headache). Newer versions support more extended features but also seem to have more bugs.
c) MS has never actually documented the control's extended formatting support or provided an API to it, and implementing it requires reverse engineering every extended feature via a back door (as you found, by pasting the magical sequences of RTF codes). Since we don't have a definitive list for #3 below, doing this in a comprehensive and robust fashion is very difficult. It doesn't mean we won't eventually get to it, but it's not trivial.

2) We did look at alternative RTF editor components that were accessible from our programming environment (Visual C++), but all the ones we found were either buggier than the MS one, required significant rewriting to incorporate (completely different API), and/or didn't replace all of the existing rich edit functionality.

3) Exactly what constitutes extended RTF editing seems to vary from person to person. It would be nice to have a detailed, prioritized list of extended RTF features that users need (and documentation/examples on how to actually product them), but each user's list would probably differ.

4) If you could provide whatever details you can on how you accomplished what you have so far (sample macros, steps you followed to divine what these macros should do, a complete list of extended formatting features you require, etc.), it would put us one step closer to implementing enhanced RTF editing within UR (ZIP and send the info to support@kinook.com or post a thread in the User Tips forum for our and other users' benefit).

Thanks.

cnewtonne

05-18-2007, 03:21 PM

kinook,
I appreciate your attention on this matter.

I still do not understand why is Kinook making this issue sound impossible, buggy, unstable, or even non-trivial. I respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree with that. This is why ...

1) In the process of trying to work around this issue, I visited 4 download sites looking for 'rich text editor'. There is a billion of them out there. Personally, I used open office, Atlantis, Abiword, Wordpad, msword for years. None of them was buggy or unstable (other than what you would expect from any software) to the extent that these features were stripped off. Why is UR any different?

2) I recently built a CMS solution for a customer and used TinyMCY and FCKEditor to provide RTF features in a web browser. These 2 controls have features that are advanced like tables, styles, links, highlight (forground/background), spell check and so many others. If technology allows us to provide such features in a web browser, we can't we provide it in a full blown fat client running on windows XP or Vista in year 2007.

3) Most of the vendors in this software category provide it as 'for granted' feature. It has become so expected that it really does not do any good to brag about it. MyTreeDB, MyBase, Treepad and so many others have it at much even cheaper cost of ownership. Why should we lower our expectation using UR at $100 price tag?

4) For my own usage, this the minimal I expect as far RTF features (in addition to what we currently have in UR)...

- create and apply text styles. Just allow me at least to do 10 of them and I'm happy.

- Indent lines both directions.

- Modify line spacing. I just could not believe it when you suggested to some of your users that they have to copy their content to some other app, adjust spacing, then put it back in UR. This is just not acceptable.

I really can not offer any more compromises or lower my expectation any more. This is the bare minimum I use on a daily basis.

I do realize more can be offered but I will not ask for it. I did not mention native table support even though others provide it. I can live without it for now.

For some reason, Kinook can not get past this RTF issue. I do not see it mentioned in any of the app I have and all do support it. From PIMs, to clipboard extenders, to IDE's, to web editors, to web publishing tools, to automation utilities, to simple note taking apps, to even Wordpad. None of them has issues with it. Why is Kinook so stuck on it?

Finally, please remember that all my comments and contributions on this forum are ALL within the context of my admiration and respect to you. However, things won't change till you hear from your users.

Thanks again

kinook

05-18-2007, 04:03 PM

Unfortunately, we can't use just any application that has a rich text editor--it must be available as a component that can be plugged into and installed with our app and accessible via a programming API. Other than WordPad (which uses the same underlying component as UR), the others you mentioned are applications which implement a rich text editor internally (and is not available as a component).

What do you mean by 'apply text styles' (something other than Item | Format | Font?), and how do you access it in WordPad? And how is_line spacing modified in WordPad? WordPad also uses the MS rich edit control and this information might shed some light on our situation. Thanks.

quant

05-18-2007, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by kinook
Unfortunately, we can't use just any application that has a rich text editor--it must be available as a component that can be plugged into and installed with our app and accessible via a programming API. Other than WordPad (which uses the same underlying component as UR), the others you mentioned are applications which implement a rich text editor internally (and is not available as a component).

I suppose cnewtonne suggests that you build you own rtf editor it other billion could do it, to which I agree if there is no other option. Couldn't you look at and use some parts of the code where rft editor is implemented? I don't know how are the licensing issues, I suppose there are many rft editors at sourceforge, where you can download the whole code and see how the shuff is done, if not directly use parts of the code. Say Abiword, the whole SDK can be downloaded here http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=15518

janrif

05-18-2007, 06:40 PM

Jarte -- a pretty talented RTF editor -- is based on Wordpad I believe. http://www.jarte.com/

cnewtonne

05-19-2007, 12:35 AM

Ok. Let tackle it one by one ...
"...we can't use just any application that has a rich text editoR...". I realize that, but my point was if all these apps and there are lot were successful in implementing RTF features as evidenced by my own use for years, why is difficult for UR to do the same?

"...What do you mean by 'apply text styles...". This is the ability to save MULTIPLE format attributes of a text (not text) and apply them on an other selection. This includes font size, color, indentation, bullets, ..etc. This saves you from having to reapply all these attributes individually.

"...and how do you access it in WordPad?..." It is funny how some one mentioned Jarta. I mentioned this part because Jarta was built using same engine of Wordpad. This is an excerpt from the web site ...
...
At the heart of Jarte sits the same word processing engine used by Windows' WordPad. The difference is that Jarte builds far more capability around the WordPad editing engine than the WordPad program itself does. The significance of this fact is that Jarte users are secure in the knowledge that Jarte is making use of the same reliable, time tested editing engine used by millions of other Windows users all over the world. If you have tried other alternative word processors and found them to be unstable that may be in part due to their use of unreliable, home grown editing engines.

Microsoft is continually upgrading the WordPad editing engine, although you would never know it by examining WordPad. The WordPad program itself has not changed since it was first introduced. Jarte, on the other hand, continues to evolve and take advantage of useful features as Microsoft adds them to the WordPad editing engine.
...

Yet, Jarta provide so many features on top some which are ...

Format brush tool quickly applies formatting to paragraphs

Optional paragraph spacing before and after paragraphs

Paragraph indentation including first line and hanging indent styles

See here for complete list http://www.jarte.com/features.html

quant

05-19-2007, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by cnewtonne
Yet, Jarta provide so many features on top some which are ...
See here for complete list http://www.jarte.com/features.html

uff, that's an ugly interface, like in the old Win 3.1 age ...

cnewtonne

05-19-2007, 08:16 AM

Kinook,
I believe this discussion can lead to some good results. From what I have seen so far, I think we can get UR to provide support to these editing features. To be productive and focused, I would like, first, to propose a list of features to add so we can all agree on. Once we do, I think we can work together to implement it.

So, this is the list (to recap) ...
1- Create and apply text styles.
2- Change line spacing.
3- Allow multi-level indentation.
4- Pick up formatting: pick format attributes of existing selection and apply it on target one.

So to move forward on this, I did some research on the available API docs for RICHED20.DLL and it looks like all these features are already supported and they DO have the APIs to do them. Here are some details ...

Reference available here http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/shellcc/platform/commctls/richedit/richeditcontrols/aboutricheditcontrols.asp

Format syltes (available as of version 3)
-------------------------------------------------------
Normal and heading styles Built-in normal style and heading styles 1 through 9 are supported by the EM_SETPARAFORMAT and Text Object Model (TOM) interfaces.

Format painter (RTF 4)
-------------------------------------------------------
- You can apply paragraph formatting by using the EM_SETPARAFORMAT message. To determine the current paragraph formatting for the selected text, use the EM_GETPARAFORMAT message. The PARAFORMAT or PARAFORMAT2 structure is used with both messages to specify paragraph formatting attributes.

- You can apply character formatting by using the EM_SETCHARFORMAT message. To determine the current character formatting for the selected text, you can use the EM_GETCHARFORMAT message. The CHARFORMAT or CHARFORMAT2 structure is used with both messages to specify character attributes.

- You can also use EM_SETCHARFORMAT and EM_GETCHARFORMAT messages to set and retrieve the character formatting of the insertion point, which is the formatting applied to any subsequently inserted characters. For example, if an application sets the default character formatting to bold and the user then types a character, that character is bold.

- The character formatting of the insertion point is applied to newly inserted text only if the current selection is empty (if the current selection is an insertion point). Otherwise, the new text assumes the character formatting of the text it replaces. If the selection changes, the default character formatting changes to match the first character in the new selection.

Default shorcuts
-------------------------------------------------------
I was kind of surprised to know that this control supported a default set of shortcuts. I tested most of them and they work just fine in Wordpad. For example, 'cntrl+1|2' in Wordpad will change line spacing. Also, 'cntrl+=' will apply superscript format. The least you can do is to allow users to use them in UR. Why override them and delete an entire functionality out of UR. If the control supports 'cntrl+1|2' for line spacing, why are you asking users to copy/paste their content to an external app to do it.
Here is the full list of shortcuts http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/shellcc/platform/commctls/richedit/richeditcontrols/aboutricheditcontrols.asp

Kinook,
As a deliverable out of this discussion, can we proceed with these steps ...

- Can we first of all agree on this list of editing features.
- If we can, can we get a commitment from you to escalate this issue on top of your feature list for next maintenance release.

Whatever this might end up being, please do not give up on us and just ignore it. It can be done, you do have the expertise to do it, and we will do whatever it takes to support you doing it. So, again, do not give up on us.

Thank you again.

janrif

05-19-2007, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by quant
uff, that's an ugly interface, like in the old Win 3.1 age ... Perhaps so but the point of mentioning Jarte was/is that it has a lot of functions built on top of Wordpad

Quoting Kinook on the subject of Wordpad:
|---------------------------[ Start ] -------------------------|
Other than WordPad (which uses the same underlying component as UR), the others you mentioned are applications which implement a rich text editor internally (and is not available as a component).
|--------------------------- [ End ] --------------------------|

If Kinook decides to improve UR' RTF editor, then here is an example of one that works based on a component that is already compatible with UR.

wordmuse

05-19-2007, 09:22 AM

Hi -

I thought I'd throw my two cents (well 10 cents) in too.

First of all, like hoisting, I think, Kinook, you may not realize just how intensely lots of your users would find this beneficial.

Like hoisting, this would improve UR and URP a bajillion percent. Really. And just as I did with my short list of what I wanted with hoisting, here's my short list for *internal* rtf capability in UR and URP.

1 - named Styles with a drop down similar to the one you have for fonts. I want to be able to call a style something like boldredyellow, which when applied, gives me bold red text on a yellow background. If I have another style called, perhaps, ocean, then it might have blue italic text on a cyan background. rocky ocean might have bullets, too. I want to name the styles myself in addition to any that UR has natively.

2 - tables - ideally the ability to have nested tables would be good, but I'll settle for flat tables. I want to be able to change the widths of the cells, apply formatting (and styles) inside the tables, set the indents within the cells, and most of the easy stuff I could do with Word 98, never mind Word 2003 and Word 2007.

3 - paragraph level indents - I want to be able to visually offset my text as needed.

4 - numbered bullets

5 - format painter - a godsend master tool

That's my short list. There's a whole lot more I could - and will :) - ask for as UR continues to evolve. (example: outlining) But I personally would be thrilled as each of these items became implemented in UR.

Jumping out to Word isn't a huge problem for me, though it would be if I were using UR in a production environment, where knocking out content lickity-split was required. It takes about 10 seconds for Word to load and then load my item when I ctrl+j it. And the return trip takes about the same amount of time. Multiply that by the number of times I need to do this (for some, I could imagine it being a very regular task), and this gets old and could potentially impact productivity.

I know that you can't expect every program to meet every need you might have. And I fully accpet that this request might negatively trade off with some other wonderful feature that UR currently supports. For example, I would not give up hoisting just to have a better internal RTF editor. But assuming that I don't have to give up something like that in order to get a better internal RTF editor, I think that Kinook should truly understand the passion of this request by its userbase.

Again - I believe that implementing this would be welcomed with the same enthusiasm that you had when hoisting was implemented. Really. :)

Regards,
Bal

quant

05-19-2007, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by wordmuse
It takes about 10 seconds for Word to load and then load my item when I ctrl+j it. And the return trip takes about the same amount of time. Multiply that by the number of times I need to do this (for some, I could imagine it being a very regular task), and this gets old and could potentially impact productivity.

who told you to use the slowest editor, ie. Word? :)

I personally dont care about rft editor capabilities in UR, choosing font and bold/underline/highlight is all I need (I concentrate more on the context rather than on the form, instead of bullets, hyphen is enough :) ). In fact, I'd be much happier if html was the base document rather than rft, and as you say you can always use external editor if you really need "advanced" features. I thinks there are other places in UR that need improvement, say calendar features, but that's just me. But it's always nice to know that kinook listens to their users ...

janrif

05-19-2007, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by wordmuse
4 - numbered bullets
A "Numbering" feature like in Word to compliment the Bullet Point feature.

This is available from the keyboard via Ctrl+Shift+L (toggles between bulleting and several numbering styles).

wordmuse

05-19-2007, 11:32 AM

thanks about the bullets - ctrl+shift+l cycles through bullets and numbers - sweet.

OK - I guess there are lots of different classes of users out here. Which is why it's so difficult to figure out what to do next if you're the developer.

For me, it's a mix: I find organization incredibly important but that very ordering is influenced by the writing itself. Ideas as I write trigger ideas about structure which trigger new ideas to write about...

So having both - a powerful editor (whether dreamweaver style - which would be - for me - a superior alternative to RTF) or RTF and powerful organizational capability is ideal. If I have to make a choice, I go with organizational. I'd prefer plain text with hoisting that feature rich text without hoisting.

And as for the world's slowest word processor... ahh well ... I can't say I make the best choices in everything. They're just choices.. :)

Regards,
Bal

cnewtonne

05-21-2007, 08:25 AM

Kinook,
My whole purpose of starting this thread was to come up with a practical solution and some kind of delivery to resolve this issue. In one of my posts and has asked for a commitment from you to look into this issue. To re-iterate, I will kindly remind you of my original request ...

....
Kinook,
As a deliverable out of this discussion, can we proceed with these steps ...

- Can we first of all agree on this list of editing features.
- If we can, can we get a commitment from you to escalate this issue on top of your feature list for next maintenance release.

....

Would it be possible to hear from you and see what we can do to move towards a resolution.

kinook

05-21-2007, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by cnewtonne
Default shorcuts
-------------------------------------------------------
I was kind of surprised to know that this control supported a default set of shortcuts. I tested most of them and they work just fine in Wordpad. For example, 'cntrl+1|2' in Wordpad will change line spacing. Also, 'cntrl+=' will apply superscript format. The least you can do is to allow users to use them in UR. Why override them and delete an entire functionality out of UR. If the control supports 'cntrl+1|2' for line spacing, why are you asking users to copy/paste their content to an external app to do it.
You can enable Ctrl+1, Ctrl+2, and Ctrl+5 to change line spacing in the UR rich text editor by unbinding those shortcuts from their default commands (go to Tools | Customize | Keyboard, select View | Data Explorer, select Ctrl+1 key assignment, and click Remove; repeat for View | Item Details and View | Other Windows | Item Notes).

As a deliverable out of this discussion, can we proceed with these steps ...

- Can we first of all agree on this list of editing features.
- If we can, can we get a commitment from you to escalate this issue on top of your feature list for next maintenance release.

There is not total agreement on which RTF features are the most important (or whether RTF enhancements should even be at the top of the list). RTF editing enhancements are on our list, along with many other feature requests, and we'll prioritize as best we can.

intermagic

08-13-2007, 04:49 PM

Hi cnewtonne,

can you please provide us with some more information about how you use Perfect Keyboard to insert formatted text into UR? I checked the Perfect Keyboard Website and tried the software - it seems to be a very powerful tool. But I don't know how to get my formatted text for example from MS Word to a macro for permanently usage. I found only the possibility to read from and write to clipboard, but the clipoboard content changes very often and I want to paste my formatted text(s) only...

By the way, I found a tool called "Perfect Menu" on the Pitrinec Website. With this tool are you able to use your macros within a (new or extended) right click menu within specific applications - for example within UR. This could be very useful for inserting formatted texts (styles) without the need to define (and to remember ;-) keyboard shortcuts...

Thanks and bye

Ralf

intermagic

08-13-2007, 07:25 PM

Hi,

I found the info to store formatted text - it's possible via the Clipboard Macro function in Perfect Keyboard. Together with Perfect Menu it works great (by right click) and enhances the usage of UR enormous!

Please see the attached Screenshot.

Bye

Ralf

zargron

08-26-2007, 10:24 PM

Only one version of Perfect Menu available.

However, which version of Perfect Keyboard did you go with?
--- LITE
--- PRO
--- Advanced Scripting

wordmuse

08-27-2007, 12:18 AM

Cool solution - I used MacroToolworks, another product by pitrinec.com to do this and it works great.

Thanks for the tip.

Regards,
Bal

janrif

08-27-2007, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by wordmuse
Cool solution - I used MacroToolworks, another product by pitrinec.com to do this and it works great.[snip] Could you plse explain how formatting is accomplished? What kind of extended RTF functions are you talking about besides tables. Thanks.

wordmuse

08-27-2007, 12:04 PM

Sure -

The "fix" isn't ideal. What would be ideal is to have native styles within URP3.

Now - mind you, I haven't done a lot with this method yet because I've got other priorities on my plate. But I did create a couple of what I'm going to call "style-inserts."

First, in Word, I created a style called boldredyellow, which you can infer is a bold red font on a yellow background. I then spelled out "bry" and set it's style to boldredyellow.

Then I copied the text to the Windows clipboard.

Switching to MacroToolworks, I created a clipboard macro called (you guessed it) boldredyellow, which took the current clipboard contents as its value.

I haven't gone so far as to create menus for this yet (again - priorities), but I created a hot key (Ctrl+B,Y) and now when I press this key combination, the boldredyellow "bry" is inserted.

I then have to select the bry text and can start typing with the new style.

It's an irritating kluge - far from ideal. But it's faster than jumping out to Word, writing my text, stylizing some of it boldredyellow and then coming back into the URP3 environment. But what the heck - I work with the world I live in.

URP3 is a superior product. Nothing does everything. I'm not going to complain - too much :) about something like this.

I got hoisting. :) I'm a very happy camper.

Regards,
Bal

janrif

08-27-2007, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by wordmuse
Sure -

The "fix" isn't ideal. What would be ideal is to have native styles within URP3.

Now - mind you, I haven't done a lot with this method yet because I've got other priorities on my plate. But I did create a couple of what I'm going to call "style-inserts."[snip] Thanks Bal. That sounds like a lot of kludge. I think I've got other priorities too. But I appreciate your taking the time to explain it to me.

dasymington

08-27-2007, 05:01 PM

I've downloaded Jarte and changed the properties for rtf files so that Jarte opens them by default. When I click on Open Document in UR the info item opens in Jarte and I can use it's formatting and editing features and then save it and resume internal editing in UR.

Perhaps not quite what you were looking for but it does allow you to use the advanced formatting that's not readily available in UR.

zargron

08-27-2007, 09:52 PM

Thanks for the heads up on Jarte dasymington. It looks really good and I was seriously considering giving it a go. However, I was disappointed to find Jarte doesn't directly support tables. :(

Woopsie! I was about to leave the Jarte web site and I decided to take a glance at the new features in version 3.0. And - they've added a heap of features including tables! http://www.jarte.com/jarte_30_features.html

Guess I'll give it a go over the next month...

dasymington

08-28-2007, 03:37 AM

Oops! Perhaps Jarte isn't such a good idea after all: it doesn't retain UR hyperlinks so if you open an item in Jarte and then resume internal editing your links don't work.

Later: but the links are retained in Jarte 3!

bkonia

09-06-2007, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by cnewtonne
For some reason, Kinook can not get past this RTF issue. I do not see it mentioned in any of the app I have and all do support it. From PIMs, to clipboard extenders, to IDE's, to web editors, to web publishing tools, to automation utilities, to simple note taking apps, to even Wordpad. None of them has issues with it. Why is Kinook so stuck on it?

I completely agree with this. There are TONS of windows applications that have WAY better RTF editors built-in. As example, check out the description from the MyInfo website at http://www.milenix.com/myinfo-features.php (MyInfo is a direct competitor to UR):

Full-Featured Text Editor
MyInfo 3 text editor has a full range of word-processing features. It offers rich text formatting, hyperlinks, tables, pictures, and OLE objects support. MyInfo 3 unique feature are the text formatting styles, which are shared in the whole topic. So you can quickly change the topic look and achieve consistent, professional look of your topics without manual labor.

I'm not saying this to try to humiliate the UR development team. I LOVE UR! I bought version 1.0 the very first day it was available for sale. I have always thought UR was a revolutionary product, which is why I'm baffled that it has such an embarassingly primitive text editor. I don't know if this is due to stubornness on the part of the UR developers or if it's just not a high priority for them. I understand the argument they make about the necessity for a Visual C++ RTF component, but I have to believe that there are tons of these components on the market. I highly doubt that the developers of MyInfo created their own RTF editor. That seems highly implausible to me. I mean look at all the shareware and freeware applications on the market that have awesome RTF editors built in. Does anyone think that these guys working out of their basement on their little freeware apps created their own RTF editors? I think not!

Come on guys...let's figure out what needs to be done and make it happen. Maybe this is an issue of cost to buy a license for a better RTF component? If that's the case, I bet many UR customers would be willing to pay extra to have access to such a component. Maybe you could sell it as an optional add-on to UR, for those users who consider this feature important enough to pay extra for. I know I would be at the front of line!

janrif

09-06-2007, 07:29 PM

Take a look @ SQLnotes in beta if you want to see robust RTF + outliner, etc. so it can be done.

zargron

09-06-2007, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by bkonia
Come on guys...let's figure out what needs to be done and make it happen. Maybe this is an issue of cost to buy a license for a better RTF component? If that's the case, I bet many UR customers would be willing to pay extra to have access to such a component. Maybe you could sell it as an optional add-on to UR, for those users who consider this feature important enough to pay extra for. I know I would be at the front of line! Well said bkonia. I agree, if money is an issue for Kinook dropping in a better RTF component and toolbar then I'd contribute.

quant

09-07-2007, 03:08 AM

Originally posted by bkonia
If that's the case, I bet many UR customers would be willing to pay extra to have access to such a component. Maybe you could sell it as an optional add-on to UR, for those users who consider this feature important enough to pay extra for. I know I would be at the front of line!
it might be a good idea if there are some additional components that user could buy, like "extended RTF module", "Visualization module", ... so that user could tweak UR to his needs and minimize the expenses ...

$bill

09-07-2007, 05:57 AM

Originally posted by janrif
Take a look @ SQLnotes in beta if you want to see robust RTF + outliner, etc. so it can be done.

No Jan, I don't think SQLnotes does RTF, it does HTML.

Remember that RTF is a Microsoft proprietary markup language and is revised and poorly documented at their will. Now back to the future -- Note that MS recently proposed a new "open document" standard - OOXML...it was rejected by the standards body partly because as written, it was incomplete and error filled. So if you want RTF implemented "correctly", by Microsoft design - you must use Microsoft Word. MS does not make it easy for other developers.

SQLnotes' documentation mentions an HTML editor. This has been suggested for inclusion in UR and I believe was once slated for a future revision. SQLnotes re-raises this issue.

I raise these technical points because I think some users just want some additional ways within UR to easily format text and thus request further RTF support. I am not sure that RTF is the best way to proceed. Nor would I try to duplicate all "word processing functions". I would leave it to the experts (Kinook) to determine the best way to implement the requested features considering compatibility within UR and across applications.

Maybe one day we will be treated with a blog post on this topic.

quant

09-07-2007, 06:11 AM

Originally posted by $bill
No Jan, I don't think SQLnotes does RTF, it does HTML.

Remember that RTF is a Microsoft proprietary markup language and is revised and poorly documented at their will. Now back to the future -- Note that MS recently proposed a new "open document" standard - OOXML...it was rejected by the standards body partly because as written, it was incomplete and error filled. So if you want RTF implemented "correctly", by Microsoft design - you must use Microsoft Word. MS does not make it easy for other developers.

SQLnotes' documentation mentions an HTML editor. This has been suggested for inclusion in UR and I believe was once slated for a future revision. SQLnotes re-raises this issue.

I raise these technical points because I think some users just want some additional ways within UR to easily format text and thus request further RTF support. I am not sure that RTF is the best way to proceed. Nor would I try to duplicate all "word processing functions". I would leave it to the experts (Kinook) to determine the best way to implement the requested features considering compatibility within UR and across applications.

excellent points ... I just add that all these problems would be gone if the main "document" was some open standard format, like html ... and if whoever would like to edit M$ proprietary documents, would have to resort to Word or some poor developers applications who try to replicate its editor features ...

janrif

09-07-2007, 06:58 AM

$Bill, Thanks. i stand corrected.

But I'd like to say this: it looks like SQLnotes will have a lot going for it if, in fact, it is developed (& supported) as advertised. Even a useful calendar module will be dropped in within a few days.

I don't know how well the program operates, whether the overall design is better / worse, no contest by comparison with URp.

All I know is that things seem to be moving forward at a reasonable clip in these early days of SQLnotes' development while Kinook -- that has other things on their plate -- seem to be moving at a glacial (but perhaps, deliberate pace).

This last observation is probably the product of my personal frustrations w some URp issues.

I don't know. Sometimes I think Kinook /URp is so talented & other times I think it's so clunky. And there is this techie sense about it. Oh, well, only time will tell.......

I just want to finally land somewhere in PIM land & stay there until I'm older & grayer.

Sorry for the rant.

bkonia

09-07-2007, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by $bill
I raise these technical points because I think some users just want some additional ways within UR to easily format text and thus request further RTF support. I am not sure that RTF is the best way to proceed. Nor would I try to duplicate all "word processing functions".

I agree. It's quite possible that many of the competing applications we've been discussing use HTML editors, rather than RTF. My answer is, who cares? Most users wouldn't know the difference and HTML is more standard anyway. If HTML components are more readily available, then please, at least give us the option of using an internal HTML editor, rather than the crappy RTF editor. Perhaps it could be a preference setting. That way users who have tons of documents stored in RTF would still be able to view/edit them, but other users would have the option to start using HTML.

Again, if it's a question of cost to buy another component, charge us extra for it. Kinook are you listening? We are desperate for better built-in editing capability. You've made an incredible product and you have an extremely loyal customer base, but the RTF editor is the Achilles Heel of UR. It's the one thing about UR that keeps me (and other users) constantly in search of alternative applications like SQLNotes or MyInfo, for example.

wordmuse

09-07-2007, 07:43 PM

Another 2 cents...

Is there really a reason to prefer rtf over html?

Suggestion: I think that html would actually be a superior method of creating richly formatted text - RIFT. :)

In fact, if you could implement it with CSS that would be nifty. All you'd have to do to do it is let me specify Notetab Pro as my ctrl+J editor.

Sweet.

Regards,
Bal

Addendum: one more comment in defense of URP3. New programs are probably easier to create than are mature ones to modify. I think Kinook has been REMARKABLE giving us what we users want. I continue to be wowwed by hoisting (can't say thanks enough for that). When sqlnotes matures, some "new kid" will seem like the greener grass and you'll face the same migration questions... My take is simply this: I look at the quality of the company and how responsive they have been. And unless someone comes along with a quantum jump order-of-magnitude better product, I see no reason to be overly upset just because not every one of my preferences is being fulfilled.

Addendum #2: That said, Kinook, giving us a real RIFT solution *would* be on a par with hoisting. :)