Has anyone else had one item overwrite another?

[Hilary]

Hi,

Occasionally, I open an item only to find its contents have been completely overwritten with the contents of some other item. I'll have had the two items in question open in tabs the day before, and now when I re-open the program the contents of one has replaced the other. So this morning I found all my passwords had turned into yesterday's to-do list.

Kinook support say they can't fix this because they can't reproduce it. It looks like I have to find some other organizer software - nightmare! I have several years' worth stored in UltraRecall in customised templates. It's my business life-support system - only now it's a life-support system that performs random amputations from time to time!

Help!

Have you had this problem? If you have, maybe we can pool information and Kinook will be able to isolate and fix it.

[quant]

hmmm, that's a serious problem.

The key to solution is your database. Can YOU reproduce the problem? Could be sth to do with tabs. Are you sure the item is deleted? First make a copy of your db, and then try to reproduce it, maybe you can then delete portion of db and reproduce again, ... and completely locate the problem.

[ashwken]

Just wondering, have you tired the Compact-Repiar under tools.

Maybe a database record pointer problem, 'course my experience is with dbf not sql.

[Hilary]

Thanks - I'll do that now. Unfortunately, given the sporadic nature of the problem, I won't know for sure whether it's worked for days/ weeks.

[janrif]

What happens if you refresh your screen display, usually <F5>?

[Hilary]

No change. To clarify - I re-open the database and find that an item is still in its same place in the tree, still has the same title, but its entire contents have been replaced by the contents of a different item. I don't know exactly when or how this happened, only that the data is lost.

[cnewtonne]

Hillary,
Due to the serious of this issue, the best evidence you can ever have is it to be able to reproduce it. But since this is so inconsistent and sporadic, may be there is some way it can be done after the fact. First of all, would you please share with us some facts about your DB like ..
- how big is it?
- Have you had any unusual events happening around the time you observed this corruption like crashes or errors.
- How long have you been using this DB or UR in general?

Kinook has offered me once a debug version of UR. May be you can ask for it and run it on your system.

I also use some other products that are based on same DB engine of sqllite. Most of the time, developers have some diagnostic SQL scripts they use to troubleshoot issues like this.

It looks like you had some communication with Kinook prior to posting here, were you able to share you DB with them for troubleshooting? Even though non-reproducible, having a 'good' and a 'bad' DB will certainly make it easier to troubleshoot.

Other than these ideas, not sure what else you or Kinook can really do.

I wish your DB well and best of luck.

[Hilary]

Thank you for your ideas!

13.4MB

No unusual crashes or errors.

The only other problem is that if I have the same item open in two tabs at once, and edit one and then close it before the old one, I can easily end up with the old version overwriting the new. (Easy solution - never edit an item that's open in another tab.)

I started this db when I started using UR in March 2005 and have been adding to it daily ever since.

No, I haven't shared the db with Kinook and they haven't offered me a troubleshooting version.

Actually in my last email I asked if they had any way/ plans to fix this, and if not could they recommend an alternative program, as however much I don't want to move, I know I shouldn't keep using a program that overwrites data. They said no, no way to fix it, and here's a list of links where you could find alternatives. Maybe I should've been clearer how much I *really* do not want to move!

[kinook]

Originally posted by Hilary
No, I haven't shared the db with Kinook and they haven't offered me a troubleshooting version.

Actually in my last email I asked if they had any way/ plans to fix this...They said no, no way to fix it...
Actually, we said "If we could reproduce the problem, we'd certainly try to fix it, but we haven't been able to so far."

From earlier correspondence, it seemed that the problem might have to do with a database re-opening with many tabs open (although we tested that and couldn't replicate a problem), so we suggested to uncheck 'Tools | Options | General | Reload tabs from last database session'. Have you done that? We also stated "...if this happens again, before closing the database, copy the problem .urd file in Explorer and ZIP and send it to us for to investigate."

Without being able to isolate the problem more than something that happens once every several days or weeks, a debug build probably won't do much good, but we can send one if you wish.

[Hilary]

You did say all those things, and I misrepresented you - my apologies.

I had been systematically closing all tabs but one before closing, but last time this happened I think the program was still open with multiple tabs at a time of a forced Windows shutdown - ie just clicking the power button, not going through the usual shutdown. (I say 'I think...' because I didn't shut down the computer, so I don't know which programs were open.) I wonder if the problem is actually triggered by having UR open when Windows shuts down in an irregular way. That would explain its sporadic nature.

[cnewtonne]

Kinook,
On several occasions you mentioned issues related to multiple tabs opening in same time. If you think there is the slightest chance this could be related, I would like to offer some suggestions please as a workaround or preventative measure.

Having multiple tabs open for same item where all can be edited is confusing, risky, and really does not have any practical purpose. This is made worse by the fact that if a user wants to add a new tab, you have it default to open a copy of existing one editable. Why go through all this hassle and risky proposition. If need to, have UR open ONLY one editable item and if user wants more of it, open it in read-only.

You seem to be aware of some issues concerning too many tabs opened that we do not necessarily see ourselves in such clarity. if you need to, why not impose a max limit on number of tabs that you deem safe till you fix the issue once and for all.

Hillary's issue is rare and you have paid her and us your valuable attention. However, I bet every one reading this post is feeling some un-easiness about it. I may be wrong or just over-worrying...

Thank you.

[kinook]

Originally posted by cnewtonne
Having multiple tabs open for same item where all can be edited is confusing, risky, and really does not have any practical purpose. This is made worse by the fact that if a user wants to add a new tab, you have it default to open a copy of existing one editable. Why go through all this hassle and risky proposition. If need to, have UR open ONLY one editable item and if user wants more of it, open it in read-only.
Yes, we intend to address this in the next release.

You seem to be aware of some issues concerning too many tabs opened that we do not necessarily see ourselves in such clarity. if you need to, why not impose a max limit on number of tabs that you deem safe till you fix the issue once and for all.
We were just speculating that having many tabs open might be a factor (although it works fine in our tests, and changes are saved before switching tabs). I can see where changes made to the same item from two different tabs could be problematic (which will be prevented as mentioned above), but we haven't yet discovered a way for the contents of one item to replace the contents of another item, regardless of the number of open tabs.

[Hilary]

Yes, we intend to address this in the next release.

That's very good news. (I've been looking at other options, and getting a longer and longer list of programs I don't want to transfer to...)

we haven't yet discovered a way for the contents of one item to replace the contents of another item, regardless of the number of open tabs
What if you initiate Windows shutdown with multiple tabs still open in UR, have shutdown fail to complete, and end up turning the computer off with the power button? Or what if the computer crashes/ powers down spontaneously?

(I'm not at all sure that there is a connection, but it seems possible, if UR was maybe interrupted when trying to close down and store the tabs.)

Yes, I know not everyone is gifted with a computer that will do these things. ;)

[kinook]

Originally posted by Hilary
What if you initiate Windows shutdown with multiple tabs still open in UR, have shutdown fail to complete, and end up turning the computer off with the power button? Or what if the computer crashes/ powers down spontaneously?
That shouldn't matter. Unsaved changes should get saved on shutdown. If the computer locks up or is powered off without shutdown, the only thing that could be lost are changes to the current tab that haven't been explicitly saved or auto-saved (changes in a tab are saved whenever switching to another tab). Regardless, it should always save the details of an item with correct item (and we haven't yet uncovered a way for that to happen).

[Hilary]

OK, here's an extra buglet that might be related.

I still had 'Reload tabs from last database session' turned on. I just closed all tabs except one before closing the program every night. So I did this last night - and this morning the program opens with three tabs I was working on before. Ie the 'reload tabs...' feature doesn't work consistently. The program was shut down, and Windows shut down, with no problems.

(The contents of all 3 re-opened tabs was present and correct... haven't found anything wrong so far.)

[janrif]

Kinook, I think Hillary is on to something.

I was playing around with the command to open Favorites in new tab & ended yesterday's session w several open tabs.

The "reload tabs" options was selected here too.

Today when I clicked on yesterday's tabs, there was no data display.

OTOH, when I tried to recreate this, all tabs between sessions opened normally & all data was present & accounted for.

I do believe there is something going on but can't offer more details at this time. I understand how difficult it is to track down something as elusive as what Hillary (& now I) are reporting.

One difference in our experiencing is that I don't believe I 'lost' any data nor do I believe any data was corrupted. And I use URp all day, every day as well.

[dasymington]

I'm disappointed there hasn't been any further action on this or comment from Kinook, particularly as it's just happened to me.

Structure:

A -> O -> B -> C

A open in tab. C open in another tab. Then I opened B in a third tab and hoisted it. I then switched to the C tab, displayed item B and hoisted it. Going back to the original B tab I found it had the contents of A in it. All of B's contents lost!

On closing down and re-opening the database, B had the correct contents of what should have been in A, and A had the contents before the last edit of A.

I've tried this all again but it didn't do it this time. I had re-open tabs checked in Options.

Hope this helps to track it down quickly. We definitely need some restrictions on what can happen when an item is open in multiple tabs.

[Hilary]

You gave a much clearer description than I ever managed!

FWIW, I'd never used hoisting when it happened to me, so that may not be part of what causes the problem.

Also FWIW, and touching wood, it hasn't happened to me again since I repaired the database and upgraded.

[kinook]

Originally posted by dasymington
I'm disappointed there hasn't been any further action on this or comment from Kinook, particularly as it's just happened to me.

Structure:

A -> O -> B -> C

A open in tab. C open in another tab. Then I opened B in a third tab and hoisted it. I then switched to the C tab, displayed item B and hoisted it. Going back to the original B tab I found it had the contents of A in it. All of B's contents lost!
Apparently you also made changes in some item(s) between some of these steps? Can you provide any more detail on steps that might help us reproduce (exactly how you opened and switched between tabs, what other tabs [if any] were open, what sort of editing was done in items, are these text items being edited internally, etc.)?

BTW, at the point where B displayed the wrong data (before closing the database), you should be able to undo to get back B contents (and then copy its contents, redo, and paste back into B to keep other changes).

On closing down and re-opening the database, B had the correct contents of what should have been in A, and A had the contents before the last edit of A.

I've tried this all again but it didn't do it this time. I had re-open tabs checked in Options.

Hope this helps to track it down quickly. We definitely need some restrictions on what can happen when an item is open in multiple tabs.
We've tried many different permutations but haven't succeeded so far in determining what additional step(s) result in this behavior. But we'll keep trying.

[dasymington]

I can't remember what changes I'd made or provide any more details. I generally open new tabs by right clicking on an item in the explorer pane and choosing open in new tab.

[dasymington]

The stability and reliability of UR just seems to get worse and worse. An item that had lots of useful information has lost this information completely and contains only the details from one of its child items. I can tell from the date stamps in the information I've entered that this happened in the last few days, but I don't know exactly when and so, no, I can't tell you the steps to take to reproduce it. Also, I can't send you the database because it has lots of confidential information, some of it important, which UR has now lost! I can say, though, that it was probably caused by having multiple tabs open as I often have these two items open in tabs.

I'm running the debug build you sent concerning http://www.kinook.com/Forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2925 but I don't think that will help to track down the problem as it seems it happens without the user noticing until much later when it's too late to recover data. (I've got backups for the last 5 days and they all show the same thing for the corrupt item.)

I don't know what you at Kinook can do to track down these problems in data integrity and stability and I don't know what more your users can do to help you do that. But if the problems persist it will mean that those of us who rely on UR to a great extent will have to look elsewhere. This would be a great pity because until now UR has proved very reliable. Tabs are a welcome feature in UR, but I can't help feeling they've caused lots of problems.

I wonder what other data UR has lost that I haven't found out about yet!

[Hilary]

Ouch!

Lots of sympathy from here.

I haven't had this problem for some time. This may be pure luck, which I may just have jinxed, or it could be because of something I've changed. So here for whatever they're worth is everything that's changed:

- gone from elderly computer to new one
- hence a fresh installation of URD
- and the new computer's running Vista not XP
- and has much more free disk space
- I never have the same item open in multiple tabs
- I never leave several tabs open when I close the program
- I always open the program manually (not on startup)
- I always close the program manually (not closing it down with the computer

[janrif]

Originally posted by dasymington
The stability and reliability of UR just seems to get worse and worse. I can say, though, that it was probably caused by having multiple tabs open as I often have these two items open in tabs.[snip] if the problems persist it will mean that those of us who rely on UR to a great extent will have to look elsewhere. This would be a great pity because until now UR has proved very reliable. Tabs are a welcome feature in UR, but I can't help feeling they've caused lots of problems. I agree w the above sentiments & altho I have written extensively on other forums re: not suffering from multiple AV's etc, I must now confess that I can no longer say that as AV's seem to be increasing in frequency here, too.

I also believe tabs, updating multiple tabs w duplicate content seem suspect. I have also experienced looping problems when one of the tabs contains web content & I replace it with another tab.

And frankly, I, too, am getting a little uneasy about storing all my data in URp despite it's many talents & Kinook's obvious technical expertise & responsiveness. I haven't decided what to do quite yet so I guess I'm here for the time being but I sure hope this stuff gets resolved sooner than later.

Sorry to waste bandwidth on a 'me too' post but I think it's important that kinook know (if they don't already) that these problems are no longer really just a few isolated incidents.

[martym]

I've had a similar, yet different, problem. I've imported a WORD file into a project and then later deleted it. However, when I import a POWERPOINT file or some other file into that same project and then open the file, the old WORD file is displayed. I ended up deleting the host project file and making a new one.

I'm new to UR so I was just experimenting in a new DB and there weren't any serious consequences. I'll keep an eye on this and try to do a better job of describing exactly what I did should this happen again.

Marty

[cnewtonne]

Originally posted by dasymington
that those of us who rely on UR to a great extent will have to look elsewhere.

The problem is there is no 'elsewhere' anywhere. I have checked every app out there in this category but have not seen a single one that has the capturing abilities of UR. This is the only aspect of UR that's making me use it. Also, you will not find any other solution that offers your the mighty attributes system (user and system) as does UR.

UR is really THE leading and pioneeing solution in this regard. Yet, I have to understand why its developers are not taking these stability/integrity/performance issue seriously despite their first-class support.

I have written over 15 software reviews on different forums. I would love to review UR and advertise it on the many forums I participate in. I have not done so because of these major issues. I just do not want to call people to using an app that is not stable and crashes the way it does with me all the time.

One solution that got me interested in is TexNotes Pro at http://www.gemx.com/ . When it comes to keeping text and organizing it, man, man, man. It is sooo attractive. But it has zero capturing and meta-data (or attribute system) to customize.

[quant]

Originally posted by cnewtonne
I just do not want to call people to using an app that is not stable and crashes the way it does with me all the time.

please, keep on submitting the trace files to Kinook, cause as much as I'd like to, I was not able to "produce" a single AV error in the last week or two ...

[$bill]

Originally posted by quant
as much as I'd like to, I was not able to "produce" a single AV error in the last week or two ...

I haven't had an AV error either...UR is quite stable and reliable here. I have noted the reports and taken them seriously enough to make sure my versioning and backup software is working....

Data loss- I don't want to minimize anyones personal loss but my recollection of the postings in this forum is that postings of data loss is pretty rare...a few records among many thousand (? millions)...This is orders of magnitude better than many other forums I have frequented.

I don't know why UR is stable here and not for a few others. My experience with similar mysterious problems with other software would make me suspicious of firewall and/or anti-virus software which may be currently running. I have neither running on my UR computer by delegating those tasks to a gateway box.

[Hilary]

Heh... might've known I shouldn't visit this thread. Or if I do, I shouldn't post something about having no more problems. Yesterday's page of notes just got overwritten by a different item. Fortunately I can pretty much remember what they said, but I need to set aside time today to check all the other items I edited yesterday, see if they still have their original contents. Cross your fingers for me.

Tip for minimising damage: keep your item text short. Subdivide long items into several smaller ones. Yes, it takes a long time to switch focus between them, but at least you can't lose so much at once.

I suppose to be absolutely safe I should just never use more than one tab.

:(

[quant]

Originally posted by Hilary
Heh... might've known I shouldn't visit this thread. Or if I do, I shouldn't post something about having no more problems. Yesterday's page of notes just got overwritten by a different item. Fortunately I can pretty much remember what they said, but I need to set aside time today to check all the other items I edited yesterday, see if they still have their original contents. Cross your fingers for me.

Tip for minimising damage: keep your item text short. Subdivide long items into several smaller ones. Yes, it takes a long time to switch focus between them, but at least you can't lose so much at once.

I suppose to be absolutely safe I should just never use more than one tab.

:(

Hilary, seems that I found the problem that could lead to overwriting one item by another, reported to Kinook, so hopefully corrected very soon, and we all can sleep a little bit better ;-)

[Hilary]

Thanks! You should get a prize, probably involving chocolate.

[janrif]

Originally posted by quant
Hilary, seems that I found the problem that could lead to overwriting one item by another, reported to Kinook, so hopefully corrected very soon, and we all can sleep a little bit better ;-)
Well, hey, that's nice. Why not share some of the details to those of us who have been curious for a long time?

[quant]

Originally posted by janrif
Well, hey, that's nice. Why not share some of the details to those of us who have been curious for a long time?
Why not? Because I firmly believe that if someone knows that there is a (serious) bug (as opposed to some small annoyance), it is best and fair to the company to report it directly to developers so that they can deal with it promptly, rather than spreading it over the forums ...

[janrif]

Originally posted by quant
Why not? Because I firmly believe that if someone knows that there is a (serious) bug (as opposed to some small annoyance), it is best and fair to the company to report it directly to developers so that they can deal with it promptly, rather than spreading it over the forums ... Well IMO that defeats the purpose of these forums. It's not just for cutsie chit chat. It's too learn about all things URp -- simple & serious but you have your opinion & I have mine & no use wasting bandwidth.

[quant]

Originally posted by janrif
Well IMO that defeats the purpose of these forums.
it doesn't even slightest. if you know there is a bug, neither I nor you or anybody in the forums can do anything to correct it, except developers. No point to discuss it. This is not about suggestions, or discussing concepts or learning sth new ...

[janrif]

Originally posted by quant
it doesn't even slightest. if you know there is a bug, neither I nor you or anybody in the forums can do anything to correct it, except developers. No point to discuss it. This is not about suggestions, or discussing concepts or learning sth new ... Well, then I suggest there is no reason, except ego, perhaps, to announce you've found a solution to a problem that maybe we can all avoid until it is fixed. And this will be my last post on this subject.

[quant]

What do you think about posting an obvious bug to UR forum? Is there any rationale? My point of view on this is here http://www.kinook.com/Forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=10767

I'd like to hear yours :)

[dasymington]

Originally posted by janrif
Well, then I suggest there is no reason, except ego, perhaps, to announce you've found a solution to a problem that maybe we can all avoid until it is fixed. And this will be my last post on this subject.
I agree entirely!

[quant]

Originally posted by dasymington
I agree entirely!
how many times were your or anybody else's items rewritten in all UR existence and what is the probability that there will be one rewritten item of any user by the time Kinook will fix it?

I wrote straight away to Kinook when I found this bug, and felt very happy that this problem could be resolved for all users (at the end this might be just another bug and the one that Hilary experienced might be simply another one), so just wrote a short note here that the problem will be fixed very soon, ... and you call me egoist, thank you ... I learned my lesson ...

[dasymington]

quant, I was hasty in saying I agreed entirely and I apologise for any offence I've caused you; however, I do think for you to post that you have identified a sequence of actions that can cause these problems but not to reveal what they are is unhelpful.

[quant]

ok, I'm breaking my principles ... partly because Kinook didn't resolve it yet ... I hope it makes you happy

create any item say item1 and open it in two tabs
go to second tab, and "shift delete" this item1
close second tab

Now note that the first tab still shows item1 as active altogether with its content, but in the Data explorer tree the focus is on another item, and typing now anything inside, you are actually rewriting the content of this focused item

and I have a feeling there might be various similar tabs related problems still unresolved ... but this might show what might get wrong so hopefully help in finding the others as well

[dasymington]

Yes, I can see that happens the way you describe, quant; but it doesn't explain the problem I've had as I never use shift+delete.

[janrif]

Originally posted by dasymington
Yes, I can see that happens the way you describe, quant; but it doesn't explain the problem I've had as I never use shift+delete. From all the posts it does appear to me that some/all of these reported problems have tabs in common.

For example, I can report that if in tab #1 I have an automated search, i.e. search when gets focus & in tab #2 I have a linked URL (either local or not) & URL is trying to resolve & I close tab, IDI focus then shifts to tab #1 thus forcing two functions to occur at the same time & on my machine this will invariably cause an error.

It's like the clash of the titons. Does this mean that URp can't handle overlapped processes? I don't pretend to be smart enough to answer that question but I am now careful not to create this situation.

All the problems I've reported seem to be rooted in tabs.

I've had data loss while entering data into tabbed window when duplicate tabs are present but not always. I try not to let this happen. This may be related to Quant's report. But I assume entering data into 2 tabs simultaneously qualifies as two functions....??

Like you, I don't use <SHFT>+<Delete> either & I certainly won' t now.

[quant]

Originally posted by dasymington
Yes, I can see that happens the way you describe, quant; but it doesn't explain the problem I've had as I never use shift+delete.
shift-delete is just a shortcut, i doesn't make difference, you can delete and then empty recycle bin, ... same thing.
The basic problems is, deleting item while it's still active in another tab ...

[kinook]

Thanks to quant's support info, we were able to reproduce this problem: if an item is shown in one tab and is permanently deleted in another tab (either via Shift+Del or Del and then emptying the recycle bin), when switching back to the first tab, the detail pane still shows the text of the deleted item, but changing the text actually edits the item that is now selected in the tree (a different item since the other one no longer exists). This problem is fixed in v3.2.2.

[dasymington]

Luckily this didn't result in one item overwriting another, but perhaps is gives a further clue to how it might happen.

As you can see from the picture there are 4 tabs open and the third from the left is the active one; but, although it has the correct item title in the tab, the item title on the form, and all the other contents of the item, are from the second tab.

I selected another item in the third tab and then went back to the one I wanted and, as I say, the correct contents were still there. Worrying, nevertheless!!!!