tag cloud

[wordmuse]

Hi -

If there was a way to create a new pane that had a tag cloud, I think that would be amazing too... :)

Regards,
Bal

[janrif]

Originally posted by wordmuse
[B]If there was a way to create a new pane that had a tag cloud, [snip]
OK, I'll bite..... what's a tag cloud?

[wordmuse]

Tag clouds are a visual way of seeing which tags are "the most important." Typically "importance" is a matter of frequency of occurrance.

You can read about them here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_cloud

With hundreds and thousands of items and the huge number of associated keywords we have, one of the main focuses of any software like URP3 (not just URP3) is to make finding the most commonly relevant pieces of information immediately obvious.

Let me give you an example. Suppose you imported into URP3 a hundred reports on a variety of loosely related subjects. URP3 automatically indexes and keywords the reports, yes?

Now tell me quickly - what are the major themes in those reports? What is the dominant jargon?

A tag clound makes this supremely easy to SEE. No analysis required.

Again - I think this would be a tremendous tool for URP3 users - almost as good as hoisting. (hint hint) :)

Regards,
Bal

[quant]

hmmm, ... even though I'm not a fan of mass information import into database (I only insert important data), this frequency analysis seems interesting!

But to make it easier to Kinook, V1 could be just a simple list of keywords with frequencies, as a search results. The items in this search results could be a (temporary created) search items with a given keyword as a name that would search for items with that keyword on clicking ...

[Jon Polish]

I think this function already exists, but perhaps not in the manner you would like. If you select any number of items and then choose Items | Keywords, the shared keywords for these items will be displayed.

Are these the results you need or am I misunderstanding?

By the way, PLEASE do not implement any further changes or additions to the program without first addressing its speed (and yes, I am now running it on a dual core, but as I have described my needs elsewhere, I find UR's speed positively maddening).

Jon

[wordmuse]

Howdy -

Quant - yes a frequency list would be a good start. But there's something very powerful in the tag cloud - at least for me.

Jon - your point about speed is important. I haven't seen anything maddening from my end, but I know full well that I'm no bellweather.

Regarding your thoughts on keywords, that's OK - I'll give it a try. But I think you have to admit that there's a difference between what you suggest and just opening URP3 and SEEING what themes are big, seem to be trending big, seem to be fading away, etc.

I know that this suggestion is ambitious. But heck it's just a suggestion box. And if you don't suggest big, then URP3 runs the risk of being overtaken by someone who says, "hmmm.... why not."

And having a big informational investment in URP3, I'd rather not see that happen. :)

Regards,
Bal

[wordmuse]

Hi Dominik,

I respectfully disagree. I know of personalbrain and I'm a fan of mindmaps. They definitely have a place.

Tag clouds are different - at least from what I've seen - in that they let you see as a function of size, boldness, color, etc. (similar to personalbrain) themes that presumably meet a threshold criteria of importance.

With personalbrain, I'm pretty sure I have to provide the initial seed. With a tag cloud, it simply plows the information and comes up with what "it thinks" are the dominant keys to the information.

Of course, your milage may (and certainly seems to) vary.

Regards,
Bal

[zargron]

IMHO an excellent topic to raise wordmuse.
I found that keywords are available when you export to OML. However, I haven't used this format before. This might not be exactly the right spot to ask, however:

1) Does anyone know of any good software into which we could import a UR OML file for tag cloud analysis?

2) More generically - does anyone use or recommend a piece of software that is good for flexible analysis and reporting on OML files? I guess I'm thinking along the lines of the flexibility with which one can import a CSV file into Excel then within minutes summarise, cross-tabulate and produce a report on your data.

(Again - apologies in advance if wrong place wrong time...)

[zargron]

Go the Tag Cloud!

Just used one at www.smallnetbuilder.com to quickly find info that I wanted! :)

[ashwken]

smartnetbuilder.com ???

Maybe I'm missing something at this site, it seems to be about hardware, how does it relate to these postings?

[quant]

Originally posted by ashwken
smartnetbuilder.com ???

Maybe I'm missing something at this site, it seems to be about hardware, how does it relate to these postings?

you need to look carefully enough :)
hint: right bottom ...

[zargron]

Originally posted by ashwken
smartnetbuilder.com ???
Maybe I'm missing something at this site, it seems to be about hardware, how does it relate to these postings? My intention behind the post was to express my greater appreciation of the concept of the Tag Cloud, having just used it in real life. I drew attention to the site for the Tag Cloud it contains, not its topic, see attached and lower right-hand corner of the indicated web page.

[ashwken]

I see, said the blind man.

800x600 resolution will get you everytime, thanks!

[wordmuse]

Exactly zargon ...

Without the webmaster doing a lick of work besides installing the tag cloud software on his/her site, the visitor can at once see the dominant themes.

That's what I want when I import a bunch of stuff into one of my URP3 databases. :)

Yup - I stick to my viewpoint on this one. :)

Kind Regards,
Bal

[zargron]

Whoah - me like tag cloud. :)
Another day another cloud!
Went to news site I visit from time to time - low and behold - tag cloud! (see attached image from http://www.abc.net.au/news/tag/cloud.htm)

[quant]

Amazon added "tag cloud" feature as well ...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Volatility-Surface-Practitioners-Guide-Finance/dp/digital-features/0471792519/ref=sbx_con/203-1596262-1806345?ie=UTF8&qid=1186144354&sr=1-3#concordance

[janrif]

Originally posted by quant
Amazon added "tag cloud" feature as well ...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Volatility-Surface-Practitioners-Guide-Finance/dp/digital-features/0471792519/ref=sbx_con/203-1596262-1806345?ie=UTF8&qid=1186144354&sr=1-3#concordance
Just curious, what practical use do you see for this in URp?

[quant]

Originally posted by janrif
Just curious, what practical use do you see for this in URp?
just what wordmuse already mentioned. Plus, it could be used for ranking search results by relevance (I hope)
http://www.kinook.com/Forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1133
As I already said, I think simple list with frequency would be enough (and much easier to implement), the graphical output doesn't add any further value to this feature imho, this is where I disagree with wordmuse who states that "there is something very powerful in the tag cloud" :)

[janrif]

Originally posted by quant
just what wordmuse already mentioned. Plus, it could be used for ranking search results by relevance (I hope)
http://www.kinook.com/Forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1133
As I already said, I think simple list with frequency would be enough (and much easier to implement), the graphical output doesn't add any further value to this feature imho, this is where I disagree with wordmuse who states that "there is something very powerful in the tag cloud" :)
OK, but here's where I get tripped up on this request. Mind you, I am nor against it, per se. I just don't get it.

In search engine results, the relevance is expressed in the order the results are displayed.

If I understand this request this gives user keyword statistics within each item returned by the search criteria.

So why do I care how many times the keyword is expressed in each item?

The only thing I would care about is if the list is ordered correctly, i..e the most relevant item displayrd @ the top of the list with some relevance statistic attribute which can be seen in a column in the search pane.

What am I missing?

[zargron]

Originally posted by janrif
OK, but here's where I get tripped up on this request ...
So why do I care how many times the keyword is expressed in each item? ...
What am I missing? Well janrif, I suggest you take a step back from the hard core precise quantitive analysis stable for a moment and think of tag clouds as giving a fuzzy furry landscape picture of revealing. You are pondering where you might like to direct your future time and effort. Well, what have you been doing up until now? You could nut out a heavily numeric analysis to aid in your decision making. Or, you could embrace a more abstract approach. Imagine querying a tag cloud associated with a particular topic that you have stored in your UR database and sitting back after a couple of glasses of a nice red and a big fat doob staring at it. Comparing the big fat words with the little dimmed words. Wondering whether you like what it's saying to you. Do you like what the big fat bold words are saying about where you have been spending your time? Does a little dimmed word tickle your fancy? Does it sneak subtly into your subconscious as something you wish you were spending more time on? Whilst not listening to the words you are hearing come out from the mouth of a person you wish you weren't with, an explosion of ideas rambles through your brain as it reveals from whence you have been and where you should head.

I hope this helps.
Lord Zargron.

[janrif]

Originally posted by zargron I hope this helps. Lord Zargron. [/B] Lord Zargron, I'm a bit confused by the 'doob' reference.

As for the rest of your post, I've come to see the reason for our divergence of interest in this subject.

It boils down to perspective.

You see, at my age, I altready spend a great deal of time in the fuzzy, furry landscapes of my past, trying to uderstand all the dimmed words flowing thru my consciousness.

So at the end of the day, I appreciate the clarity of "hard core precise quantitive analysis" when I can find it.

[quant]

Originally posted by janrif
So why do I care how many times the keyword is expressed in each item?

The only thing I would care about is if the list is ordered correctly, i..e the most relevant item displayrd @ the top of the list with some relevance statistic attribute which can be seen in a column in the search pane.

I don't understand, you ask a question in the first paragraph, and answer yourself in the second.

"Tag cloud" and "relevance" features could be implemented at the same time.

Example:
Imagine you imported several documents dealing with some financial analysis, and put them in the "new documents" directory. Now you create search, tick "limit search to siblings" and tick the newly created "keyword frequency analysis" option. The search returns this list:

keyword frequency
dollar 1000
volatility 600
bond 300
market 200
price 100
...

By this search, I know what is the main topic the documents deal with. If I wanted to learn more about bonds, I'd click on "bond", this would perform the search on the same subset of documents, but with search string "bond", and the result would look like:

item frequency
Bond analysis.pdf 78
Capital markets.pdf 23
Fixed income products.pdf 20
...

So if I want to learn about bonds, the above documents would be probably the best candidates to start with ... without frequency, the search would return 20 documents that contain keyword "bond" maybe once, and I'd waste time opening each of them trying to see if I that is the document I need to learn about bonds

This is very primitive frequency analysis, easily implemented, ... maybe enough for the start. For the better search results, I decided to only link documents to UR, on which I can perform much more with SearchInform that includes morphology, exact, containing, phrase, ... search

[janrif]

Originally posted by quant
I don't understand, you ask a question in the first paragraph, and answer yourself in the second.

"Tag cloud" and "relevance" features could be implemented at the same time.

Example:
Imagine you imported several documents dealing with some financial analysis, and put them in the "new documents" directory. Now you create search, tick "limit search to siblings" and tick the newly created "keyword frequency analysis" option. The search returns this list:

keyword frequency
dollar 1000
volatility 600
bond 300
market 200
price 100
...

By this search, I know what is the main topic the documents deal with. If I wanted to learn more about bonds, I'd click on "bond", this would perform the search on the same subset of documents, but with search string "bond", and the result would look like:

item frequency
Bond analysis.pdf 78
Capital markets.pdf 23
Fixed income products.pdf 20
...

So if I want to learn about bonds, the above documents would be probably the best candidates to start with ... without frequency, the search would return 20 documents that contain keyword "bond" maybe once, and I'd waste time opening each of them trying to see if I that is the document I need to learn about bonds

This is very primitive frequency analysis, easily implemented, ... maybe enough for the start. For the better search results, I decided to only link documents to UR, on which I can perform much more with SearchInform that includes morphology, exact, containing, phrase, ... search I understand the concept but backing up to the step before importing to UR, when I search the internet, the results can be presented by relevance, i.e. 99% listed first, etc.

I'd just link/import to the first few documents assuming these would be the most relevant documents to import into UR.

If, however, what I get from the internet is not sorted by relevance then your relevance list is extremely useful.

Again, I repeat, I am not aginst this improvement. I'm just having an 'intellectual' discussion here.

But I would say in the scheme of things that UR needs, I don't think clouds should be higher in priority than other things..... IMO a global search ability across all open databases like Zoot would be one those things.

[zargron]

Originally posted by janrif
I'm a bit confused by the 'doob' reference.Herbs + paper + light = clouds.
Again, I repeat, I am not aginst this improvement. I'm just having an 'intellectual' discussion here.

But I would say in the scheme of things that UR needs, I don't think clouds should be higher in priority than other things..... IMO a global search ability across all open databases like Zoot would be one those things. That's the main point isn't it janrif? I misinterpreted, or rather came down a bit heavy on your "... I just don't get it..." post. Tag clouds are good - it's simply a matter of scarce resource allocation. I agree with you, I would vote for plenty other suggestions before tag cloud.

[janrif]

Originally posted by zargron
Herbs + paper + light = clouds.
That's the main point isn't it janrif? I misinterpreted, or rather came down a bit heavy on your "... I just don't get it..." post. Tag clouds are good - it's simply a matter of scarce resource allocation. I agree with you, I would vote for plenty other suggestions before tag cloud. No problem, Lord Zargron, I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread.

BTW, my first Bouvier des Flanders pup was named "Bogart" as in Don't bogart my doob....

[zargron]

Originally posted by janrif
BTW, my first Bouvier des Flanders pup was named "Bogart" as in Don't bogart my doob.... :D :D :D

[wordmuse]

I've been away awhile... (grumble, grumble...)

As the originator of this thread, I'd like to weigh in again...

If all the information I have is self-created, then a tag cloud isn't all that useful to me.

But...

... if I import 20 pdf files, a dozen Word documents, etc. from a bunch of different sources, and I want to get the common threads without having to even scan the documents at all, a tag cloud seems to be the best way that I've seen available.

If someone has a way, using URP3 as it's currently developed, to let me have an idea of the information I've imported without doing visual inspections, I'd be grateful.

Again - my idea is to give me a very fast gander at the major themes of my imports.

I don't much care how I get to do this; I just want to do it; and a tag cloud seems like it could do the trick.

Savvy?

Regards,
Bal

[zargron]

Originally posted by wordmuse
I've been away awhile... (grumble, grumble...)Me to - flat out like a lizard drinking at the moment...
If someone has a way, using URP3 as it's currently developed, to let me have an idea of the information I've imported without doing visual inspections, I'd be grateful.Can't help you directly. However, I've had this idea in my someday maybe tray for ages where I export a branch from UR then run the exported data through a tool (custom or otherwise) that generates a Tag Cloud. If anyone wants to explore such an idea before I get to it then be my guest. It would take a lot of pressure off Kinook 'cause they could say "tag clouds from UR are possible - just a few clicks even if not built-into the product".

[janrif]

Originally posted by wordmuse
If someone has a way, using URP3 as it's currently developed, to let me have an idea of the information I've imported without doing visual inspections, I'd be grateful. Not automated but how about using the note pane for an identifying sentence or two.

[wordmuse]

Hi janrif,

nope - that won't let me do what I asked for, i.e., to get the basic themes of my imported documents without having to visually inspect them.

If I already knew the content and the themes, then I wouldn't need or ask for a tag cloud or something that would let me do what I'm after.

It's the visual inspection that's the time killer. I want to automate this, and I'd like to do so in the URP3 environment if possible.

Regards,
Bal

[wordmuse]

I was browsing a blog earlier today and they had a tag
cloud. I could easily see what were the dominant themes
of the blog without having to read a single entry.

A relevance list would be useful, but it's not the
same. Really - if you think about it, you know this is
true. A relevance list as discussed in this thread
presumably shows you the most relevant ITEM TITLES -
which may or may not reveal the most dominant themes.

Let me spell this out to avoid confusion: I could, in
principle, give each item an arbitrary title, like
asdfsdf and jlkjlkjl. And the content could be ordinary
content, like an import from various websites. So there
is no logical connection between an item's title and
its content. The only connections are by intention.
Period.

But a tag cloud wouldn't care. It simply reads the
entire content and reveals the dominant themes, no
matter what I titles I give the items.

And clicking a cloud item would, I hope, reveal all the
Explorer Pane items associated with the tag cloud word.

I would personally find this tremendously helpful -
mainly after import of lots of new content - but in
general as well.

Regards,
Bal

[Quantum7]

Originally posted by zargron
I would vote for plenty other suggestions before tag cloud.

I'd also like to (for now) vote against this suggestion.

Reasoning:
I see the tag cloud as a feature to find trends in the UR data. Which sounds cool, but doesn't do much for the day to day use regarding my use of it as a PIM application.

In other words, I'd much rather have improved functionality for i.e. finding individual items (and a dozen+ other things) than having a feature that enables me to find trends in my data.

Exception to the above against vote: If the effort required to implement this is negligible (which seems unlikely).

[wordmuse]

"trends in the data" - yes. that's one of the things I'd like. But trends isn't the only thing that this can do.

I'm not going to belabor this more. I've said about all I can say without repeating myself, and I think I've done that plenty (with apologies).

Let's just say that your mileage may vary... :)

Regards,
Bal

[TMF]

I was just about to post this as a suggestion.

I don't see tag cloud as a feature to find trends in UR data, but as a navigational means, and would find this feature very helpful.

[J-Mac]

Wow - fairly old thread, but since TMF brought it back to the present with a post, I though I would chime in too.

I like the idea of a tag cloud. Not a vital feature, to be certain, but certainly a nice feature to add that actually would not take any serious amount of time and should not have any effect on speed at all. (At least having adding a similar scripts to do this in another application, there was no measurable change in speed at all).

Another way to look at it is like the intersection search capability in Evernote, at least Evernote 2.2; they have stripped any serious search functions from the new version 3). Clicking on two Evernote categories in succession gives you an extremely fast primary search of your notes database with a secondary search of a category within the first's results. And being recursive, you can click additional categories to further stratify the data.

I did notice that some users mentioned earlier in this thread that there are ways to create keyword analyses that do even more than the relatively simple division that a tag cloud would do. It would be valuable - at least to me - if someone could expound on that a bit. I am somewhat illiterate in that area as of yet but would love to read and learn!

Thanks!

Jim

[wordmuse]

Glad to see this topic independently revived. I'd still love to see this implemented.

- Bal