what's keeping you busy?

[quant]

Hi Kinook,

could you please update roadmap (http://www.kinook.com/Forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3204) and let us know what can we expect next? ;-)

Thank you

[quant]

bump :)

[quant]

bump^2

[eno]

My wish list of most important enhancements in order of priority would be


1 Highlight search results

2 Multi-DB search

3 Two Data Explorer panes (so I could have two DB's showing and to make it easier to move items between DB's)

4 Open multiple items in side-by-side windows

5 Automatic clipboard capture

6 Revamp the help file

[gepner]

I second that list, especially the mult-db search.

[eno]

WHATS THIS ??????????

http://www.kinook.com/Forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3204

[quant]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

%@#$%@$ #%@$&234 523 23@#$%@#$%@ # @#$% @ #$%!#@%#$R#@ $^%@ @#$% @#$% @#$%@#$ %@#$ %@# $ %@#$ %@#$ !!!

:(

[TMF]

That's business, and the downside of UltraRecall not being a software for masses.

For me the current version is quality software that I will continue using for years to come, even if it's not updated.

I believe better times might come, and Kinook will continue with development at some point in the future. My best wishes to Kinook, business-wise.

After all
a] it doesn't have to be updated every few months as we are used to, some sofware gets updates every one or two years

b] they are using it internally, too

[alx]

I second Tom, and I have posted my support to Kinook here:
http://www.outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/872/10

All the best
Alexander

[janrif]

Altho this is greatly disappointing..... & frustrating..... this action does not come as a surprise to me. In fact, I mentioned it once before & was shouted down. So be it.

I strongly believe that besides having a great product -- like UR -- open, kindly, friendly, welcoming customer support is just as essential to the potential success of any product.

Yes, for those of you who are technically oriented, kinook has always been prompt in replying to technical questions posted here. Now I suppose this is all that should be required of technical support, ie.. ask a question, get the answer.

But, to me, both the information & the approach has always been highly technical & cold & frequently over my head.

A smile goes a long way in this world. IMO, UltraRecall was never going to break out of its small technoworld with that approach.

Like Agenda, Ecco & ADM before it, UR leaves behind a mature, unfinished product & a bunch of users who now have a tough decision to make.... and if they decide to move on..... hours & hours of work before getting their life back in order.

None the less, I don't wish Kinook any ill. I hope they succeed as I do all other small software companies whom I have spent thousands & thousands of dollars supporting over the years.

Happy Halloween.

[Jon Polish]

While I find UR is unquestionably a fine example of programming and have not hesitated to point out its faults along the way, I am sorry to learn that development has stopped. I am grateful that Kinook has taken UR this far and we are left with a stable and reliable product. I wish they could have finished incorporating the calendar and html export, but I suspect the addition was a massive undertaking and probably would have introduced bugs that would take a while to work out.

Jan has always been cautious about prospects for most software, and I think I finally see his point. While support is not yet abandoned, I imagine that it is only a matter of time.

Kinook, I wish you well. Maybe, but I think not, when the economy turns around, you will find it worthwhile to resume development. This type and quality of software is needed.

I suppose the smugness about UR's capabilities over similar (and older) products expressed by some here and in other forums was well intended. But news like this certainly takes the wind out of one's sails because, if the software languishes it will be overtaken by other products or new technology which will marginalize UR as its limitations are reached (I'm thinking Ecco Pro, Info Select, askSam, etc.).

Jon

[quant]

Kinook,

is there any way we could help?

[MVFF]

Jeez, I was just getting UR set up to be incredibly productive. And, to order more licenses for my employees!

This software is amazing now and has so much potential that it's scary.

My 2 cents...

[quant]

Originally posted by MVFF
This software is amazing now and has so much potential that it's scary.
tell me about it, I've just set up the website (sites.google.com/site/ultrarecall) and was going to make some instructional videos :(
I think one of the problems was marketing, I was in search for a perfect PIM for about half-a-year, and found UR only by chance.

[rothrin]

It appears that the notification of Kinook suspending Ultra Recall's development has been removed. :-)

http://www.kinook.com/Forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3204

[janrif]

Kinook, I am confused -- as well as disappointed now. The roadmap was updated 10/30/08 & the notice for future enhancements is still present. The announcement that UR will no longer be developed has now been removed.

Could you kindly be straight up wi your loyal users & tell us exactly what's going on. We might be able to help. We certainly CAN'T help if we think the product is in a ditch.

Are you continuing to develop UR or not? Is the roadmap valid or not. If not, kindly say so so those of us who were patiently waiting for what was in the offing can start to look elsewhere.

I have a 100's of hours invested in UR from my end. I'm sure you've got thousands. Nevertheless my time is as valuable to me as yours is to you & I think my commitment to your product should be respected w some straight talk.

So exactly what is going on with UR?

Thank you.

[kinook]

The current version of Ultra Recall is mature and useful and we'll continue to support it. We intend to update UR in the future for bug fixes, Windows compatibility updates, and to implement items on the road map when we can justify the effort.

[janrif]

Originally posted by kinook
The current version of Ultra Recall is mature and useful and we'll continue to support it. We intend to update UR in the future for bug fixes, Windows compatibility updates, and to implement items on the road map when we can justify the effort. Sorry, some of that is double speak.

Exactly what does "when we can justify the effort" mean?

Are your current clients not worth justifying the effort? Do you need more clients? Do you need upgrade fees, more money? If so, how much? What conditions will make it justifiable to make the effort to complete what you continue to post as the product roadmap?

I'm not being difficult. However, I would like a straight answer. I think you owe your loyal customers that, at least. I'm not looking for warm & fuzzy, just the facts.

Thank you.

[$bill]

Kinook,

[Metaphor alert]

Alas, I had hopes that your next roadmap revision would be explaining how you would be engineering UR for the cloud with MS Azure, Google or Amazon EC2 and adapting UR to mobile devices...

And I respect your need to reassess and perhaps redeploy to cope with the cloud buzz, mobile devices and the economic climate. A new product perhaps?

I appreciate your reassuring commitment to compatibility and bug updates. That should see me through as I do my own coping with the changing landscape.

Thanks for a great product!

[quant]

Kinook,

genie is out, anything you say about "further updates and development" will now be suspicious. I have to agree with Janrif.

If money is the problem (what else?), then maybe you could switch to special mode. As the calendar pane or other features from roadmap which would warrant upgrade fee are not ready, maybe user could "donate" and this money would count to their upgrade fee once the features are ready. It would change the cash-flow as you'd have money for the development NOW, and not after you updated the software. This would compensate the lower income from the lower sale numbers in times like this. Just a suggestion.

[PureMoxie]

I enjoy program updates as much as the next person, and each release of UR has added features that I indeed use. I do really hope the product continues to be developed at some point in the future.

However, isn't software purchased for what it can do at the time you purchase it? I don't think there is any guarantee implied in any software purchase, from any company large or small, that there will actually be new releases of the software in the future. When you purchase software, you are generally licensing the current version rather than buying into some future vision that may or may not come about.

In regard to UR's maturity and usefulness - isn't it true that if you are happy with the current feature set, you can use UR for many years to come in its current state - especially if it will be updated for any Windows compatibility issues? I know it is exciting to be using a continually evolving product, but UR already has a lot of power and is stable.

[TMF]

Originally posted by PureMoxie

In regard to UR's maturity and usefulness - isn't it true that if you are happy with the current feature set, you can use UR for many years to come in its current state. [/B]
That depends, I recognize many names here, from other forums, usually "in search for the holy pim grail".

However we have to keep in mind, that for every one forum warrior, there are 30 or 50 or 100 regular users, many of whom probably still with some older UR version, not bothered much to update to the latest, "just using it". And they are the people who pay the development.

After certain point, the product becomes too complicated for the masses that are actually funding it, yet it becomes a luring ground for searchers of a holy grail (myself including, nothing bad on it).
But that's just a wild shot.... only Kinook sees the real picture.

I can fully subscribe to what you wrote, of course.

[quant]

Originally posted by PureMoxie
However, isn't software purchased for what it can do at the time you purchase it?
yes and no. You might buy it, because there is simply nothing better at the time, but that might not be true in one year or even less. When you include the time to learn the software and most importantly your valuable information which, however easy the export is, would be hassle to move to different software, you realize that the purchase price is much more than just the current version of the software.

Originally posted by PureMoxie
In regard to UR's maturity and usefulness - isn't it true that if you are happy with the current feature set, you can use UR for many years to come in its current state
true, but who said I'm happy? ;-)
Just an example: great feature of internal links ... but just change it's name and it's lost forever, cause you won't find it. Plus, it's so complicated to simply see all the items where the current item is linked. The internal links pane was on the road map, but now it's gone ... probably forever.

[janrif]

I come to this theme from a different POV.

First Kinook posts a statement that states they are suspending development.

OK, fine. That's their right. To me that means the roadmap is dead & I have to decide to commit to UR as is or invest my time -- forget the money -- to learn, transfer & re-arrange all my data in another program.

Then Kinook comes back, deletes the first post & replaces it with some language that is ambivalent @ best, misleading (in view of the first post) at worst.

That's what got me going here. As an investor -- so to speak -- in Kinook (as are we all), I think I have the right to know exactly what's going on w UR & to know if there are any possible alternatives, i.e. further investment on my part for the next development round, etc.

Maybe Kinook is getting ready to sell the company & wants to show a better balance sheet. That's ok, too. Just say so.

In short, some transparency is what I am calling for.

I believe I have a right to that whether or not UR is a mature product, whether Kinook is going to continue fixing bugs, no matter the philosophy of buying a piece of software, etc.

Those are separate issues AFAIC. If you all want to have a philosophical discussion about software development & licensee expectations, that's fine but that's not what I'm about here.

This is purely a practical matter for me. My time is as valuable to me as Kinook's time is to them & I'd like to be able to make an educated decision about how best to invest my time in the coming months

So how about it, Kinook?

<bump> 11/07/08

[wordmuse]

http://www.outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/872/0/ultra-recall-is-dead

I'm guessing that because the Roadmap
has been updated, this rumor can be
put to bed. Yes?

Regards,
Bal

[janrif]

Not at all read the thread "What's keeping you busy"

[wordmuse]

That's a-too bad. :(

As one of URP3's most ardent fans I was looking
forward to the updates.

But I don't believe in "servitude." It is every
company's right to assess their product line
and what they will do with it. And given the
competitive nature of business, I don't think
that they are morally required (nice as it would
be) to give we users any warning whatever.

Anything contractually taken on as an obligation
(if any such thing exists) obviously needs to
be honored. But nothing more.

Having said that... :)

It would be nice to know, Kinook. You've got
some very loyal folks here who took a real
shine to you. Is this really how you want to
reward us?

Kind Regards,
Bal

[igoldsmid]

I have turned to using Knowledge Workshop - http://www.kworkshop.com/ - its broadly similar to UR - plus is has the huge advantage of providing full text search and highlighting search results across everything - web pages, documents (pdf, MS office) -

Development is active.

[quant]

Originally posted by igoldsmid
I have turned to using Knowledge Workshop - http://www.kworkshop.com/ - its broadly similar to UR - plus is has the huge advantage of providing full text search and highlighting search results across everything - web pages, documents (pdf, MS office) -

Development is active.
seems nice, but does not have customizable attributes as far as I can see, which means that it's on the same level as other many other PIMs. Everything has to be done through the keywords instead of relevant attributes.

[igoldsmid]

nope - it has fully customizable attribute sets and attributes - rather similar to UR

[quant]

Originally posted by igoldsmid
nope - it has fully customizable attribute sets and attributes - rather similar to UR
ok, I'll have a look. I wonder why then they explain everything with the help of keywords and not by setting attributes, for example GTD http://www.kworkshop.com/blogs/gtd.shtm

[Jon Polish]

Originally posted by igoldsmid
I have turned to using Knowledge Workshop - http://www.kworkshop.com/ - its broadly similar to UR - plus is has the huge advantage of providing full text search and highlighting search results across everything - web pages, documents (pdf, MS office) -

Development is active.

It does look like a good alternative should I need to move from UR, but I probably won't choose KW. Why? Because of the product activation scheme among other reasons. I have seen too many companies vanish and where would that leave someone's data (or continued use of the program) when it comes time to upgrade your machine?

Jon

[Pierrebln]

especially you can not export the data, you are depending from kw This is a ko criterium

[Jon Polish]

Originally posted by Pierrebln
especially you can not export the data, you are depending from kw This is a ko criterium

You can export to xml, but that is no solution for me.

Jon

[igoldsmid]

in KW you can export to web - it works a lot better than UR

[Jon Polish]

Exporting to xml would be the preferred way to go should you want to retain SOME of the functionality and relationships of your database. To my knowledge, exporting to html will lose even more.

While you can use xml to back up your database, most users who perform backups will not do this. It would be an additional and unnecessary step in the backup routine (the data is already backed up using the original data files). I worry about software with activation. The user trusts that the company will still be in business when upgrading hardware. This is not guaranteed, so access to your data may be lost. Some software companies claim that the product will continue to function as a viewer of existing data. This is better, but you cannot do anything further with it.

I wish KW would forego activation. I am tempted, but not foolhardy. Especially after what I have experienced here and with other companies.

Jon

[igoldsmid]

why don't you email them and express your concern:

service@lmsweb.com - they are very responsive and quick to respond

[Jon Polish]

I already did when I was exploring this program. Stephen was very informative and courteous, but the bottom line is that this is the way they prevent piracy. In the event the company vanishes, they will contract with a third party to handle the activations. I don't doubt the honorable intentions, but the circumstances by which a company ceases to exist will dictate what can be done for their customers and for how long.

Microsoft and other large companies use activation and I personally hate it. But there is a difference in scale and customer base. I don't lose sleep over them.

Jon

[Pierrebln]

xml not help me, I need the data in realformat,
kw cannot drag and drop the data to windows explorer,
kw has some good features but it is not a alternatively to ur for me

[janrif]

What's going on is such a shame as UR is so near to being the perfect all-in-one.

Searching across multiple databases & integrating a calendar would do it for me.

Are there other things that can be improved, added or tweaked? You betcha but UR's got more basic bones in place & is the most reliable app in the category IMO.

It's just slightly un-finished for the average user.

I have maintained over the development of several of these type programs that a well integrated calendar is essential to greater market interest. The reason is simple: everyone knows, understands & uses a calendar every day. There is no learning curve. A calendar is friendly.

I'm glad to see SQL has realized this & is focused on it's integration into SQLnotes (or InfoQube). In my heart of hearts I wish Kinook would do the same.

But much like Zoot, IMO few are going to wait around for years for this kind of development despite so many other great program attributes.

Yes there are still many people using EccoPro & yes, there will still be people ussing URp many years from now but I think -- sadly -- URp will not achieve it's piece of the pie w/o further development.

I look to IDImager -- a one man company in Holland -- that captured the DAM market from far bigger competitors in the crowded market of digital photograhy by having a constantly evolving product, listening to his customer base, providing excellent & friendly support. And he just been rewarded with an infusion of funds from Silicon Valley. So it can be done.

There have been so many twists & turns in Kinooks publiic pronouncements & actions over the past weeks, maybe there will be yet one more turn of events & they will get back to work on UltraRecall.

[eno]

Janrif I agree with you and hope Kinook have a change of mind especially about Searching across multiple databases & integrating a calendar.

I have tried lots of other programs including those mentioned in this forum, I was using ask sam before using UR but none worked better for me than UR.

I think too many people were suggesting "improvements" that while it would make the program "better" for them would only clog the program down for most other users.

As the program is at the moment it does the job better than other programs but that does not mean there is no room for improvements.

Kinook please re-consider and keep development going on UR

[MVFF]

Kinook, UR is a couple of upgrades away from being the next killer App. Right up there with Spreadsheets, Word Processing, Internet browsing, etc.

The addition of a calendar and the ability to assign security to info items so that it can be used in a business setting would propel UR to strategic weapon status.

Regards

[quant]

Originally posted by eno
Janrif I agree with you and hope Kinook have a change of mind especially about Searching across multiple databases ...

I see that this is asked by quite many users, but I still don't get it. My question is, what kind of info are you looking for that you think it might be in any of your databases, instead of some particular one?

Originally posted by eno
I think too many people were suggesting "improvements" that while it would make the program "better" for them would only clog the program down for most other users.

I'd have agreed if the speed of software development was faster than the speed at which the hardware is being improved. This is hardly the case, the exception proves this rule: Vista :)

[quant]

Originally posted by MVFF
Kinook, UR is a couple of upgrades away from being the next killer App.
My next killer app will be one that will perfectly blend data management with its visual representation. Kinook removed that part from roadmap, and UR is sooooo close. Seems that I will have to wait a few years till that kind of application will come from other way around. Mindmappers are getting better and better, so I hope programs like The Brain and the like will improve on data management side with proper database backend and reimplement most of the PIM features.

[quant]

Great News!!! UR decided to incorporate The Brain visualisation using their SDK, http://www.thebrain.com/#-49

[janrif]

I think you've gotten into that beer I suggested a few posts ago. Nevertheless it was reported recently that day dreaming is healthy.

[J-Mac]

Hello all.

I just noticed this thread a couple of days ago. Needless to say I was shocked! As a relatively new UR Pro user - I just purchased it a few months ago and have been working to master it ever since - I have been stopped in my tracks, so to speak. Do I continue in my deep learning curve with UR-P? Or start examining other options?

Guess I'll have to play it by ear, like most here.

In the meantime - obviously I never saw the "stopping development" notice, as it was apparently replaced by the new, unimproved Roadmap - has Kinook ever commented on the development freeze? (Or whatever it is properly called now). I haven't found any other comments other than those in this thread.

Thank you all, for the information in advance, as well as for all the assistance you have provided to me here.

Jim

[janrif]

Originally posted by J-Mac
[B] I just noticed this thread a couple of days ago. Needless to say I was shocked! As a relatively new UR Pro user - I just purchased it a few months ago and have been working to master it ever since - I have been stopped in my tracks, so to speak. Do I continue in my deep learning curve with UR-P? Or start examining other options?
obviously a personal decision... but depending on your specific needs, the dilemma is there is problem nothing better out there @ this time.

There are other programs in the works, ex: SQLnotes (aka InfoQube or IQ) & Tom Davis aka Zoot has already or is just about ready to publish a new version of Zoot w RTF. And there is 'The Brain' if you are into Mind Mapping or other apps like GemX's DoOrganizer or OneNote.

obviously I never saw the "stopping development" notice, as it was apparently replaced by the new, unimproved Roadmap - has Kinook ever commented on the development freeze? [snip] I haven't found any other comments other than those in this thread.
To be accurate the Roadmap was not changed but the statement about further development was changed to be less definite.

If you go to URL http://www.kinook.com/Forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3848 you will see that Kinook has responded to a new user asking how often they update by stating:

"It varies. Judging from past history of our products, from a couple months to a few years. We don't currently have an ETA for the next UR release."

Other than that I haven't seen any further clarification other than what you've read. Perhaps some one else has more information or.... gasp.... maybe Kinook will actually drop in here & answer your question.

[quant]

Originally posted by janrif
To be accurate the Roadmap was not changed but the statement about further development was changed to be less definite.
it WAS changed, several items were removed from there, e.g. internal links pane, connection pane, etc.

[janrif]

Originally posted by quant
it WAS changed, several items were removed from there, e.g. internal links pane, connection pane, etc.
OK, thanks for correcting me. It's worse than I thought.

[J-Mac]

Thanks folks.

quant: I had noticed that the roadmap had changed a bit since I had last seen it. Perhaps it is not all bad after all. However I tend to think that the roadmap may have been put back in place so that sales do not drop off completely. But maybe I'm wrong there.

Jan, I have been working on SQLNotes (IQ) since it was released as a beta version. Very interesting indeed, though, as with UR, I do not pick up new database applications easily - I'm afraid they do not appear very intuitive to me! Just as I struggled with Ultra Recall's documentation (very detailed, but not necessarily easy for the uninitiated to comprehend), I also struggled with SQLNotes, as there was not much documentation available for it when it was initially released. Fortunately though, Pierre, the developer of SQLNotes, is very communicative and generous with his time and guidance. He was, and remains, very much in touch with his user community. (A disability prevents me from sitting at my computer very long at one time, so printable, relatively easy-to-follow documentation is a real blessing for me!) The user forum for SQLNotes is also very active and very helpful to me.

I won't give up entirely on Ultra Recall; there is still a lot that I can do with it. But looking forward, I think that SQLNotes may be my future.

Thanks!

Jim

[$bill]

This was also posted:

Originally posted by Semanticum
<snip>kinook, What about providing a clearer answer here? Do you plan to develop UR further within the next two years: Yes or no?
Originally posted by kinook on 2008-11-13
Yes, we do intend to develop UR further in the next few years.

[J-Mac]

Interesting.

But I would think that some sort of explanatory comment about the first announcement on the Roadmap page would be forthcoming.

Thanks.

Jim

[ashwken]

Originally posted by $bill
This was also posted:
http://www.kinook.com/Forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3848
I've always had the impression that UR was an internal tool that was made available as - this is what we use, maybe you'll find it useful. I've often wondered, if UR is used internally by Kinook, then how do they deal with the "short-comings" that we see.

As has been noted many times in this thread, UR is a stable working program and it appears that support and development will continue (at a slower pace ?).

[J-Mac]

Yeah, I guess...

...but it sure doesn’t exactly inspire confidence, does it?!

How've you been, Ken? Long time... etc.

Jim

[tfjern]

After reading all the forum posts regarding Kinook's recent and sudden decision to (apparently) suspend UR development, for reasons unspecified and (hopefully) for the time being, over the weekend and out of curiosity I examined virturally all of UR's competitors (WhizFolders, The Brain, Zoot, Infoqube, KnowledgeWorkshop [not bad], etc.), and came to the conclusion that I will stick with UR to the bitter end, so to speak.

It's a fine program that does what I need, though it would have been nice to see future upgrades with these tweaks, among others --

1) global searching across databases, and
2) highlighting of search hits --

UR has the potential to be, as several people have mentioned on this forum, a killer application. I'm sure Kinook's abrupt decision has to do with the crumbling economy, but one can only wonder in astonishment that companies that deserve to collapse are being bailed out right and left, while many good companies such as Kinook are being left out in the cold, so to speak.

[igoldsmid]

If you follow the recent thread here:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ZootForum/

You will see that Zoot Version 6 will be released in Beta in January - its in highly active development mode.. I'll say no more - have a read

[tfjern]

I took your advice, igoldsmid (I've tried and tested many PIMs over the past 10 years, but not as many or as often as you have), and downloaded and toyed with an updated version of Zoot most of the day.

Not bad, getting better, but UR is still the best (esp. regarding webpage import, vis-a-vis Zoot anyway), perhaps until Zoot 6.0 comes out (six months from now? a year? how long does Zoot beta testing usually last in that company?). By the way, igoldsmid, how do you know for sure the next version of Zoot will be what we are all looking for? Are you a beta tester? Just curious.

So much for sticking with UR to the bitter end. I wish Kinook would give us specific information regarding their future UR development plans, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

[J-Mac]

I'll still be using Ultra Recall until such time as it cannot be used anymore - unsupported OS or something.

I do use a couple of other PIM-type applications (specifically Evernote 3 and InfoQube/SQLNotes), but each has its own purpose for what I do. UR-P does some things that I cannot seem to do with others, so it stays in my PIM "arsenal", at least for now.

Evernote 3, with its online availability, is great for notes and even PDF files that I want to be instantly available from anywhere - and that is not security-sensitive. (I don’t trust most online apps with anything that I absolutely don’t want others to see).

IQ is great for some things: I am using it for outline/tabular data. But it cannot accept files dragged or imported into it, and it doesn’t seem to have links available that stay as tight as UR's do.

As long as UR has features that I cannot replicate elsewhere, it will remain on my computer.

Bad part, other than the fact that future development is in serious doubt, is that there will probably not be a lot of posting here in the forums. To be honest, this isn't a very active forum to begin with; as the users here migrate to other applications I imagine that posting will become even more sparse. That hurts me because forum posts are one of the better UR learning tools for me.

Jim