Extended RTF Editing Features... a workaround

[dasymington]

Oops! Perhaps Jarte isn't such a good idea after all: it doesn't retain UR hyperlinks so if you open an item in Jarte and then resume internal editing your links don't work.

Later: but the links are retained in Jarte 3!

[bkonia]

Originally posted by cnewtonne
For some reason, Kinook can not get past this RTF issue. I do not see it mentioned in any of the app I have and all do support it. From PIMs, to clipboard extenders, to IDE's, to web editors, to web publishing tools, to automation utilities, to simple note taking apps, to even Wordpad. None of them has issues with it. Why is Kinook so stuck on it?

I completely agree with this. There are TONS of windows applications that have WAY better RTF editors built-in. As example, check out the description from the MyInfo website at http://www.milenix.com/myinfo-features.php (MyInfo is a direct competitor to UR):

Full-Featured Text Editor
MyInfo 3 text editor has a full range of word-processing features. It offers rich text formatting, hyperlinks, tables, pictures, and OLE objects support. MyInfo 3 unique feature are the text formatting styles, which are shared in the whole topic. So you can quickly change the topic look and achieve consistent, professional look of your topics without manual labor.

I'm not saying this to try to humiliate the UR development team. I LOVE UR! I bought version 1.0 the very first day it was available for sale. I have always thought UR was a revolutionary product, which is why I'm baffled that it has such an embarassingly primitive text editor. I don't know if this is due to stubornness on the part of the UR developers or if it's just not a high priority for them. I understand the argument they make about the necessity for a Visual C++ RTF component, but I have to believe that there are tons of these components on the market. I highly doubt that the developers of MyInfo created their own RTF editor. That seems highly implausible to me. I mean look at all the shareware and freeware applications on the market that have awesome RTF editors built in. Does anyone think that these guys working out of their basement on their little freeware apps created their own RTF editors? I think not!

Come on guys...let's figure out what needs to be done and make it happen. Maybe this is an issue of cost to buy a license for a better RTF component? If that's the case, I bet many UR customers would be willing to pay extra to have access to such a component. Maybe you could sell it as an optional add-on to UR, for those users who consider this feature important enough to pay extra for. I know I would be at the front of line!

[janrif]

Take a look @ SQLnotes in beta if you want to see robust RTF + outliner, etc. so it can be done.

[zargron]

Originally posted by bkonia
Come on guys...let's figure out what needs to be done and make it happen. Maybe this is an issue of cost to buy a license for a better RTF component? If that's the case, I bet many UR customers would be willing to pay extra to have access to such a component. Maybe you could sell it as an optional add-on to UR, for those users who consider this feature important enough to pay extra for. I know I would be at the front of line!

Well said bkonia. I agree, if money is an issue for Kinook dropping in a better RTF component and toolbar then I'd contribute.

[quant]

Originally posted by bkonia
If that's the case, I bet many UR customers would be willing to pay extra to have access to such a component. Maybe you could sell it as an optional add-on to UR, for those users who consider this feature important enough to pay extra for. I know I would be at the front of line!

it might be a good idea if there are some additional components that user could buy, like "extended RTF module", "Visualization module", ... so that user could tweak UR to his needs and minimize the expenses ...

[$bill]

Originally posted by janrif
Take a look @ SQLnotes in beta if you want to see robust RTF + outliner, etc. so it can be done.

No Jan, I don't think SQLnotes does RTF, it does HTML.

Remember that RTF is a Microsoft proprietary markup language and is revised and poorly documented at their will. Now back to the future -- Note that MS recently proposed a new "open document" standard - OOXML...it was rejected by the standards body partly because as written, it was incomplete and error filled. So if you want RTF implemented "correctly", by Microsoft design - you must use Microsoft Word. MS does not make it easy for other developers.

SQLnotes' documentation mentions an HTML editor. This has been suggested for inclusion in UR and I believe was once slated for a future revision. SQLnotes re-raises this issue.

I raise these technical points because I think some users just want some additional ways within UR to easily format text and thus request further RTF support. I am not sure that RTF is the best way to proceed. Nor would I try to duplicate all "word processing functions". I would leave it to the experts (Kinook) to determine the best way to implement the requested features considering compatibility within UR and across applications.

Maybe one day we will be treated with a blog post on this topic.

[quant]

Originally posted by $bill
No Jan, I don't think SQLnotes does RTF, it does HTML.

Remember that RTF is a Microsoft proprietary markup language and is revised and poorly documented at their will. Now back to the future -- Note that MS recently proposed a new "open document" standard - OOXML...it was rejected by the standards body partly because as written, it was incomplete and error filled. So if you want RTF implemented "correctly", by Microsoft design - you must use Microsoft Word. MS does not make it easy for other developers.

SQLnotes' documentation mentions an HTML editor. This has been suggested for inclusion in UR and I believe was once slated for a future revision. SQLnotes re-raises this issue.

I raise these technical points because I think some users just want some additional ways within UR to easily format text and thus request further RTF support. I am not sure that RTF is the best way to proceed. Nor would I try to duplicate all "word processing functions". I would leave it to the experts (Kinook) to determine the best way to implement the requested features considering compatibility within UR and across applications.

excellent points ... I just add that all these problems would be gone if the main "document" was some open standard format, like html ... and if whoever would like to edit M$ proprietary documents, would have to resort to Word or some poor developers applications who try to replicate its editor features ...

[janrif]

$Bill, Thanks. i stand corrected.

But I'd like to say this: it looks like SQLnotes will have a lot going for it if, in fact, it is developed (& supported) as advertised. Even a useful calendar module will be dropped in within a few days.

I don't know how well the program operates, whether the overall design is better / worse, no contest by comparison with URp.

All I know is that things seem to be moving forward at a reasonable clip in these early days of SQLnotes' development while Kinook -- that has other things on their plate -- seem to be moving at a glacial (but perhaps, deliberate pace).

This last observation is probably the product of my personal frustrations w some URp issues.

I don't know. Sometimes I think Kinook /URp is so talented & other times I think it's so clunky. And there is this techie sense about it. Oh, well, only time will tell.......

I just want to finally land somewhere in PIM land & stay there until I'm older & grayer.

Sorry for the rant.

[bkonia]

Originally posted by $bill
I raise these technical points because I think some users just want some additional ways within UR to easily format text and thus request further RTF support. I am not sure that RTF is the best way to proceed. Nor would I try to duplicate all "word processing functions".

I agree. It's quite possible that many of the competing applications we've been discussing use HTML editors, rather than RTF. My answer is, who cares? Most users wouldn't know the difference and HTML is more standard anyway. If HTML components are more readily available, then please, at least give us the option of using an internal HTML editor, rather than the crappy RTF editor. Perhaps it could be a preference setting. That way users who have tons of documents stored in RTF would still be able to view/edit them, but other users would have the option to start using HTML.

Again, if it's a question of cost to buy another component, charge us extra for it. Kinook are you listening? We are desperate for better built-in editing capability. You've made an incredible product and you have an extremely loyal customer base, but the RTF editor is the Achilles Heel of UR. It's the one thing about UR that keeps me (and other users) constantly in search of alternative applications like SQLNotes or MyInfo, for example.

[wordmuse]

Another 2 cents...

Is there really a reason to prefer rtf over html?

Suggestion: I think that html would actually be a superior method of creating richly formatted text - RIFT.

In fact, if you could implement it with CSS that would be nifty. All you'd have to do to do it is let me specify Notetab Pro as my ctrl+J editor.

Sweet.

Regards,
Bal

Addendum: one more comment in defense of URP3. New programs are probably easier to create than are mature ones to modify. I think Kinook has been REMARKABLE giving us what we users want. I continue to be wowwed by hoisting (can't say thanks enough for that). When sqlnotes matures, some "new kid" will seem like the greener grass and you'll face the same migration questions... My take is simply this: I look at the quality of the company and how responsive they have been. And unless someone comes along with a quantum jump order-of-magnitude better product, I see no reason to be overly upset just because not every one of my preferences is being fulfilled.

Addendum #2: That said, Kinook, giving us a real RIFT solution *would* be on a par with hoisting.

[Leoram]

Jarte 3.0 final is out for download free. It supports tables and a bunch of rtf formatting.

http://www.jarte.com/
http://www.jarte.com/download.html

[quant]

I'm not really a fan of "Rich text editor enhancements", but seeing that it's second on the Roadmap, if it doesn't take much work, I'd welcome upperscript and lowerscript buttons, thanks.

[kinook]

Ctrl+= and Ctrl+Shift+'+'
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb787873.aspx (last table)

[quant]

Originally posted by kinook
Ctrl+= and Ctrl+Shift+'+'
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb787873.aspx (last table)

GREAT! Thanks a lot!

I have a very bad memory (honestly), would it be possible somehow to add customizable buttons to which user could assign keyboard shortcut, ie. clicking a button would "execute" a shortcut? No idea whether someone (apart from me) would find it useful at all, though ... maybe it could be useful on tablets (which I plan to try soon)



Admin note: Line spacing, styles, bullets/numbering, tab, super/subscript, tables, hyperlinks, alignment, indents are now available in UR