Has anyone else had one item overwrite another?

[Hilary]

Hi,

Occasionally, I open an item only to find its contents have been completely overwritten with the contents of some other item. I'll have had the two items in question open in tabs the day before, and now when I re-open the program the contents of one has replaced the other. So this morning I found all my passwords had turned into yesterday's to-do list.

Kinook support say they can't fix this because they can't reproduce it. It looks like I have to find some other organizer software - nightmare! I have several years' worth stored in UltraRecall in customised templates. It's my business life-support system - only now it's a life-support system that performs random amputations from time to time!

Help!

Have you had this problem? If you have, maybe we can pool information and Kinook will be able to isolate and fix it.

[quant]

hmmm, that's a serious problem.

The key to solution is your database. Can YOU reproduce the problem? Could be sth to do with tabs. Are you sure the item is deleted? First make a copy of your db, and then try to reproduce it, maybe you can then delete portion of db and reproduce again, ... and completely locate the problem.

[ashwken]

Just wondering, have you tired the Compact-Repiar under tools.

Maybe a database record pointer problem, 'course my experience is with dbf not sql.

[Hilary]

Thanks - I'll do that now. Unfortunately, given the sporadic nature of the problem, I won't know for sure whether it's worked for days/ weeks.

[janrif]

What happens if you refresh your screen display, usually <F5>?

[Hilary]

No change. To clarify - I re-open the database and find that an item is still in its same place in the tree, still has the same title, but its entire contents have been replaced by the contents of a different item. I don't know exactly when or how this happened, only that the data is lost.

[cnewtonne]

Hillary,
Due to the serious of this issue, the best evidence you can ever have is it to be able to reproduce it. But since this is so inconsistent and sporadic, may be there is some way it can be done after the fact. First of all, would you please share with us some facts about your DB like ..
- how big is it?
- Have you had any unusual events happening around the time you observed this corruption like crashes or errors.
- How long have you been using this DB or UR in general?

Kinook has offered me once a debug version of UR. May be you can ask for it and run it on your system.

I also use some other products that are based on same DB engine of sqllite. Most of the time, developers have some diagnostic SQL scripts they use to troubleshoot issues like this.

It looks like you had some communication with Kinook prior to posting here, were you able to share you DB with them for troubleshooting? Even though non-reproducible, having a 'good' and a 'bad' DB will certainly make it easier to troubleshoot.

Other than these ideas, not sure what else you or Kinook can really do.

I wish your DB well and best of luck.

[Hilary]

Thank you for your ideas!

13.4MB

No unusual crashes or errors.

The only other problem is that if I have the same item open in two tabs at once, and edit one and then close it before the old one, I can easily end up with the old version overwriting the new. (Easy solution - never edit an item that's open in another tab.)

I started this db when I started using UR in March 2005 and have been adding to it daily ever since.

No, I haven't shared the db with Kinook and they haven't offered me a troubleshooting version.

Actually in my last email I asked if they had any way/ plans to fix this, and if not could they recommend an alternative program, as however much I don't want to move, I know I shouldn't keep using a program that overwrites data. They said no, no way to fix it, and here's a list of links where you could find alternatives. Maybe I should've been clearer how much I *really* do not want to move!

[kinook]

Originally posted by Hilary
No, I haven't shared the db with Kinook and they haven't offered me a troubleshooting version.

Actually in my last email I asked if they had any way/ plans to fix this...They said no, no way to fix it...

Actually, we said "If we could reproduce the problem, we'd certainly try to fix it, but we haven't been able to so far."

From earlier correspondence, it seemed that the problem might have to do with a database re-opening with many tabs open (although we tested that and couldn't replicate a problem), so we suggested to uncheck 'Tools | Options | General | Reload tabs from last database session'. Have you done that? We also stated "...if this happens again, before closing the database, copy the problem .urd file in Explorer and ZIP and send it to us for to investigate."

Without being able to isolate the problem more than something that happens once every several days or weeks, a debug build probably won't do much good, but we can send one if you wish.

[Hilary]

You did say all those things, and I misrepresented you - my apologies.

I had been systematically closing all tabs but one before closing, but last time this happened I think the program was still open with multiple tabs at a time of a forced Windows shutdown - ie just clicking the power button, not going through the usual shutdown. (I say 'I think...' because I didn't shut down the computer, so I don't know which programs were open.) I wonder if the problem is actually triggered by having UR open when Windows shuts down in an irregular way. That would explain its sporadic nature.

[cnewtonne]

Kinook,
On several occasions you mentioned issues related to multiple tabs opening in same time. If you think there is the slightest chance this could be related, I would like to offer some suggestions please as a workaround or preventative measure.

Having multiple tabs open for same item where all can be edited is confusing, risky, and really does not have any practical purpose. This is made worse by the fact that if a user wants to add a new tab, you have it default to open a copy of existing one editable. Why go through all this hassle and risky proposition. If need to, have UR open ONLY one editable item and if user wants more of it, open it in read-only.

You seem to be aware of some issues concerning too many tabs opened that we do not necessarily see ourselves in such clarity. if you need to, why not impose a max limit on number of tabs that you deem safe till you fix the issue once and for all.

Hillary's issue is rare and you have paid her and us your valuable attention. However, I bet every one reading this post is feeling some un-easiness about it. I may be wrong or just over-worrying...

Thank you.

[kinook]

Originally posted by cnewtonne
Having multiple tabs open for same item where all can be edited is confusing, risky, and really does not have any practical purpose. This is made worse by the fact that if a user wants to add a new tab, you have it default to open a copy of existing one editable. Why go through all this hassle and risky proposition. If need to, have UR open ONLY one editable item and if user wants more of it, open it in read-only.

Yes, we intend to address this in the next release.

You seem to be aware of some issues concerning too many tabs opened that we do not necessarily see ourselves in such clarity. if you need to, why not impose a max limit on number of tabs that you deem safe till you fix the issue once and for all.

We were just speculating that having many tabs open might be a factor (although it works fine in our tests, and changes are saved before switching tabs). I can see where changes made to the same item from two different tabs could be problematic (which will be prevented as mentioned above), but we haven't yet discovered a way for the contents of one item to replace the contents of another item, regardless of the number of open tabs.

[Hilary]

Yes, we intend to address this in the next release.

That's very good news. (I've been looking at other options, and getting a longer and longer list of programs I don't want to transfer to...)

we haven't yet discovered a way for the contents of one item to replace the contents of another item, regardless of the number of open tabs

What if you initiate Windows shutdown with multiple tabs still open in UR, have shutdown fail to complete, and end up turning the computer off with the power button? Or what if the computer crashes/ powers down spontaneously?

(I'm not at all sure that there is a connection, but it seems possible, if UR was maybe interrupted when trying to close down and store the tabs.)

Yes, I know not everyone is gifted with a computer that will do these things.

[kinook]

Originally posted by Hilary
What if you initiate Windows shutdown with multiple tabs still open in UR, have shutdown fail to complete, and end up turning the computer off with the power button? Or what if the computer crashes/ powers down spontaneously?

That shouldn't matter. Unsaved changes should get saved on shutdown. If the computer locks up or is powered off without shutdown, the only thing that could be lost are changes to the current tab that haven't been explicitly saved or auto-saved (changes in a tab are saved whenever switching to another tab). Regardless, it should always save the details of an item with correct item (and we haven't yet uncovered a way for that to happen).

[Hilary]

OK, here's an extra buglet that might be related.

I still had 'Reload tabs from last database session' turned on. I just closed all tabs except one before closing the program every night. So I did this last night - and this morning the program opens with three tabs I was working on before. Ie the 'reload tabs...' feature doesn't work consistently. The program was shut down, and Windows shut down, with no problems.

(The contents of all 3 re-opened tabs was present and correct... haven't found anything wrong so far.)